to wonder why non-Christians celebrate Christmas

[MissMashMissMash]

Am not trying to offend anyone here but am interested to know what others think.

I often think that if I wasn't a Christian I wouldn't celebrate Christmas as it wouldn't mean anything to me. I just don't really why people spend so much time, money and stress on something which is meaningless to them.

As it is I don't actually spend much money at Christmas as it isn't about that for me. If it was completely meaningless for me I would just treat it as any other day I think, not sure though what do others think?

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

'the large amount of god figures that went before'

Please tell Bonnie, which of these god figures preached social justice, the evils of the rich and that the poor will inherit the earth, forgiveness and unconditional love?

It is not being arrogant. I am the first to criticize all the church has become. I am an agnostic too. It is just stating a fact.

[StuffingGoldBrass]

Po, how much comparative mythology have you actually studied? My admittedly limited reading in the area suggests that some of the Indian myth systems featured lessons on justice for the poor and not tying oneself to possessions etc. And plenty of the pantheistic societies had at least one imaginary friend who was on the side of the dispossessed.
Mythology is, after all, Stuff Someone Made Up, which is why most myth systems feature the same sort of themes (birth, death, resurrection, some sort of moral ordering of the world). It's just unfortunate that the ones which survive tend to be the ones that are most suited to backing up genocide and conquest.

[2rebecca]

How do you know their souls are "lost". That's very judgemental. I'd have thought a Christian would feel it was god's will and they'd be happilly in heaven. It's us atheists who think there's nothing positive about 29 youngish blokes dying.
I see no reason to get particularly down about it though, they are just more people I don't know who have died. I don't get more upset about these deaths just because the accident was televised, unlike the thousands of RTAs and deaths by cancer etc every day that aren't televised.
It's tragic for their relatives, it's not particularly sad for me, just a reminder that mining is still a hazardous occupation and another reason not to buy diamonds so people don't have to mine needlessly.

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

SGB, the point is Christ put a comprehensive collection of teachings together as an effective way for individuals and society to live. He may well have taken things from other religions - I like the theory that the 3 kings believed him to be the Dalai Lama, took him to the East for the period of life that is unaccounted for and trained him in Buddhism, as his teachings are a perfect balance between Buddhism and Judaism, though they become more than the two halves with his emphasis on social justice. I have looked at Hinduism and appreciate that many religions have important lessons in them. But Christ WAS the first to put together a revolutionary and subversive collection of teachings which, were they really followed by us all, would really bring about a heaven on earth [which means you can benefit from his teachings in an entirely secular way]

I believe Christ existed, and the historical documentation bears that out. Whether God exists is more difficult, obviously. But even if you don't believe Christ existed, someone put his teachings together, and his teachings stand alone as crucial for humankind, regardless of any supernatural element.

[TrailMix]

MishMash No offence meant, honestly just curious! But...

Seriously, had none of this already occured to you? I mean, as a Christian who has obviously given this enough thought to post the OP, had...

1. the original pagan holiday and the fact that many Christmas traditions have nought to do with Christianity
   
2. the traditional family get-together
   
3. Santa
   
   ...escaped your attention?
   
   
   I don't mean to sound cast the ignorance of many on your doorstep - I've no idea where your OP came from - but this IS a seriously ignorant question that gets asks of non-Christians (quite a wide swathe of people, by the way!) every year. The answer is so obvious (as the previous 6 pages of replies demonstrate) that it honestly knocks me back a step every time I hear it. It just shows such a profound lack of knowledge about a festival that Christians often purport to be 'expert' in.
   
   So I'm glad it's generated a good discussion, that's great, but I am interested in how you missed out on the 'real' meaning of Christmas to a huge number of people celebrating it.

[SeaTrek]

Christmas to me is a winter festival. There was a winter festival way before humans invented the Christian God.

The celebration we call Christmas (and I am happy to - Christianity is an important part of our heritage and history in this country) will mean different things to different people.

Likewise with Easter. I am more than happy to call my spring celebrations that for historical reasons.

[ShatnersBassoon]

We celebrate Christmas because it's a break from work and school, and a jolly lovely holiday at home. There is no other time in the year when I could convince DH to take time off to sit at home, watch telly and stuff his face for a few days. It's a mid-winter celebration to us, but we call it Christmas so people don't mistake us for pagans or somesuch. We like to fit in.

For most people who don't appreciate the religious element, it's a fine excuse to do something cheerful and out of the ordinary.

[upsylazy]

It's a chance to stuff my face, get pissed and slump in front of tv without feeling guilty. What's not to like?

[StuffingGoldBrass]

PO: But 'Jesus Christ' didn't put together anything - even the most loopy fundie buckethead doesn't claim that he wrote the New Testament - it's a mishmash of stuff written (and translated and retranslated) by several different people. Anyway, if you say you're an agnostic, what's the big deal with trying to claim that one imaginary friend is bigger and better than the others? There is very little to choose between the myth systems, really.

[TrailMix]

And StuffingGoldBrass - is that a Christmas name in November or have you been celebrating Thanksgiving?

[MissMashMissMash]

Trailmix- I suspose I did know that there are reasons other than Jesus that people celebrate Christmas. But they just seem so much smaller than Jesus' birthday and I think I'd get a bit disillusioned with it all if I was just celebrating a season or Santa. Family is a big one though that perhaps I hadn't considered enough. What about people who don't have families though or have families that they don't want to spend time with. Looking at some of the Christmas related threads on AIBU it seems as if some families are more trouble than they're worth at Christmas. As for Santa, surely after about 10 years of age at most nobody believes in him anyway. Although granted people keep up the story for children. But not have has/spends Christmas with children

[TrailMix]

Wow, six pages later and you still don't get it. How sad that you will never understand Christmas.

[BonniePrinceBilly]

You can't be serious PoFaced? Come on, you think no-one had ever thought of being nice to each other and giving out about rich people? Have you never heard of Buddha, for example? Or Zarathustra ? Or maybe Mahavira? Catch yourself on and go learn something.

[Earthymama]

I am a pagan and I am having FOUR mid-winter celebrations!! No FIVE...

1. Get together to collect the greenery to make wreaths and garlands on the weekend before Christmas
   
   
2. Yule celebrations at Glastonbury
   
   
3. Christmas Day with DP, cooking, good food, drinks, walking, sleeping, watching Christmas stuff
   
   
4. DS and his lovely partner will be visiting us so more food and exchange of gifts, drinks, food etc
   
   
5. DD and DGC coming for Christmas with DP and I, prezzies, crackers the lot.
   
   I was brought up in a Christian family and I know the lessons I learned have been valuable. However, many faith paths have the sametruths, care and respect for others at their heart.
   
   So I celebrate the knowledge that there will be Light and longer days, that the Wheel of the Year will turn once more by lighting candles, celebrating abundance and love in my life, showing those I love that I care.
   
   I would like to know what OP thinks we should do? Refuse to have the time off work? turn up our noses at mince pies and christmas cakes??

[MissMashMissMash]

I don't know if I'll ever understand Christmas Trailmix, seems to be quite a complex thing.

Earthymama I'm not suggesting that anyone should or shouldn't do anything. Just was pondering what I would do at Christmas if I didn't believe in Jesus, so asked others opinions.

[Blatherskite]

Surely, if you're doing a Christian Christmas, the only bit you should technically do is the Church service? The rest is Pagan add-ons isn't it?

[TiggyD]

You have to celebrate Christmas as it's Santa's birthday. It's a time to remember how Frosty the Snowman wanted a child so sent a group of Reindeer to tell a fairy and her husband Frank Incense they were going to have a baby and they had to call him Santa. King Harold told everybody to go to Bethlehem to stop them shooting arrows at him. Frank and the Fairy went to Bethlehem but had to have give birth in a shed because all the rooms were booked as it was Christmas. Then Sybil Shepard came round with 3 wise guys with presents of gold, DVDs and a tin of Quality street. Everybody sat by a brown tree with broken lights on it and made cards and swapped stockings then ate a turkey stuffed with sprouts and watched some crap TV show about flying snowmen.
It's tradition!

[BonniePrinceBilly]

lol@tiggy

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

SGB read some liberal theology and then we can talk.

Bonnie, READ my post please.

[Blu]

This country would be in it's knees and bound for hell in a handcart without Christmas!
We'd be over-run by turkeys: they really are not attractive birds, and would do more damage to your bumper than a pheasant .
We'd never offload the Roses and Quality Street mountain on the rest of the EU as they are so snobby about chocolate and sending Christmas cards is the most ingenious job creation scheme ever invented - thousands on unemployed postmen would be roaming the streets, forming gangs to kidnap lowly pizza-leaflet delivery people, fighting for the business, huge Letterbox Turf Wars. And there is No Other Use for sprouts - soon one of our most unpleasant vegetables could be extinct
Christmas is for Life, not just for Christmas.

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

And btw Mahavira,as far as I know, was much more interested in telling people not to have sex than social justice. Funnily enough, for all the church's obsession with sexual deviance, JC was supremely uninterested in people's sex lives. Mahavira did preach non-acquisition of material things, but did not extend that to a larger picture of social justice.

I do think Jainism and Buddhism have some very interesting aspects. I love the fact that both religions don't really have a God at the centre. I think the idea that a woman has to be born as a man before achieving nirvana though is a rather fundamental flaw. And the fact that Jainism is partly responsible for the caste system, not much social justice there.

[BonniePrinceBilly]

I read your post, and like SGB said, your "Christ" figure didn't write the gospels.

I have a diploma in Christian Theology and World Religion, since we need qualifications to talk to you.

Mahavira only expected monks to be celibate, not the general populace, under the principle of brahmacarya. Jainism is/was a religion with strict social conscience, far more that a rejection of materialism.

[BelleDameSansMerci]

PO - I don't think throwing in a bit of "the idea that woman has to be born as a man" etc is going to strengthen your case. I haven't noticed women being treated equally by any major world religion including Christianity.

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

Sorry Bonnie, I've been on many threads where SGB has said the same thing and do feel if you are going to make a statements like that you do need to read up on what you are criticizing a bit more.

I never said Christ wrote the gospels, thanks. But a linear picture of his teachings arises from the gospels, as you should know.

As I said, there is a huge amount of good in Eastern religions such as buddhism and jainism, and Christ may well have taken stuff from Buddhism, had he been exposed to it.


Belle - there is a difference between original teachings and how those teachings are twisted or corrupted by institutions/authorities who want to use them for their own ends. There is a lot of misogyny in both the Old Testament and in certain elements of Jainism and Budhhism. Christ was extremely subversive in having women in his close group of friends, and preaching equality in terms of spiritual worth.

[StuffingGoldBrass]

P: BUt why is it such a big deal to you that plenty of people are uninterested in other people's imaginary friends, and can in fact put together a worldview that includes kindness and fairness without the benefit of any particular myth system (funny who those who insist on the importance of the myth systems invariably have a hard time dumping the misogyny, heretic-bashing and other dodgy bits).