to wonder why non-Christians celebrate Christmas

[MissMashMissMash]

Am not trying to offend anyone here but am interested to know what others think.

I often think that if I wasn't a Christian I wouldn't celebrate Christmas as it wouldn't mean anything to me. I just don't really why people spend so much time, money and stress on something which is meaningless to them.

As it is I don't actually spend much money at Christmas as it isn't about that for me. If it was completely meaningless for me I would just treat it as any other day I think, not sure though what do others think?

[colditz]

It's a cultural and psychological thing.

It's the middle of winter. We've been cold and miserable for MONTHS. Everyone else is having a jolly party with food and presents and family.

So do I, as an Athiest, say to my children "No, Children. We Do Not Believe In God. We must therefore sit alone and be hungry (ok, bored with our boring food) and without presents. We don't deserve nice things because we are Godless Heathens!"

No, no I don't. I say "At Christmas, Santa comes and leaves presnts all over the living room. Tell me what you'd like him to leave you. Oh, and we're going to nanny's for the day. I want to eat roast lamb."

[lowrib]

Personally I find it odd that Christians still insist that Christmas has anything to do with Christ.

History teaches us that there is no evidence that Christ was born on 25th of December.

It appears instead that Christianity adopted traditions taken from the worship of Mithras, who was born on December 25th. It was the Roman ruler Constantine who declared that Christmas was on December 25th, and this was done to make it easier for followers of Mithras to convert to Christianity. The Romans rulers had good reason to want to co-opt followers of Mithras into the Church as many of the Military were followers of Mithras.

Mithras pre-dates Christ by about 600 years, and in fact there are startling similarities between their stories - does this sound familiar ... ?

• "Mithras was a divine being borne of a human virgin on December 25th (the Winter Solstice by the Roman Julian calendar)
  

• his birth watched and worshipped by shepherds.
  

• Mithras healed the sick, made the lame walk, gave sight to the blind and raised the dead.
  

• Before returning to heaven at the Spring Equinox Mithras had a last supper with 12 disciples (representing the 12 signs of the Zodiac).
  

• Mithraism included Zoroastrian beliefs in the struggle between good & evil, symbolized as light & darkness.
  

• black-and-white morality (including a final judgment affecting an afterlife of heaven or hell)
  

• Mithraism was like an ancient fraternity: a mystery cult open only to men which had seven degrees of initiation ? including the ritual of baptism and a sacred meal of bread & wine representing the body & blood of Mithras.
  

Sound familiar anyone? Christianity basically nicked the Christmas story (and other key bits) from Mithrasism!

"The Church was pushed by political forces and pulled by the desire to co-opt a popular pagan holiday, despite a lack of evidence that Christ was born in December"

Points above taken from this page

It's also likely that the the reason people worship Christ on a sunday is also down to making it easier for the Mithras followers to convert. The bible is pretty clear that the holy day is Saturday - the Sabbath. But Mithras was a sun god and he was worshipped on Sunday, so the holy day was changed.

In this historical context, I don't see it as any weirder that I - as an atheist - would choose to join in on some largely pagan traditions (decorating trees, celebrating the winter solstice) than that you would join in on some traditions based on a religion 600 years older than Christ.

It's a funny old world

[lowrib]

Welcome to mumsnet by the way

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

lowrib nobody actually thinks Christ was born on the 25th December. That has been the date chosen symbolically to celebrate his birth. Because it ties in with a pre-existing festival of light and joy. You can appreciate and celebrate both festivals.

[EricNorthmansMistress]

Christmas is a pre-christian festival re-packaged as the birth of Christ. Getting together with family, eating good food, drinking good wine, exchanging gifts, decorating the home are all ancient markers of celebration.

I also happen to enjoy the story of jesus and will tell it to my DS, he may be confused since I'll be saying it's a story and his dad will be saying it happened but not quite like that...(muslim) but I respect and enjoy the christian stories and messages. Christmas is far more than celebrating the jesus story...

[MarthaLovesMatthew]

I find it odd that every time a conversation like this comes up, someone mentions that Christianity 'hijacked' Christmas from the pagans.

No they didn't. They hijacked the date. Christmas and it's meaning is entirely Christian. Pagans still celebrate their winter ritual, Christians can celebrate Christmas. Just because both occur at the same time doesn't somehow invalidate Christmas.

[MarthaLovesMatthew]

X-posted with POFAKKEDD...

[Blatherskite]

Humans have had a celebration in midwinter long before it was hijacked by the Christians and renamed Christmas.

In our family, it's about the only day we can guarantee that everyone will have a day off work and it's nice to get together, share good food and appreciate having one another. It's got nothing to do with Christianity for me. You can have a very good Christmas (food, tree, pudding, presents etc) without ever doing anything originally Christian.

[Blatherskite]

Lol at X posting with Martha

[MIFLAW]

I personally do it purely to annoy Christians.

[MrsTittleMouse]

I was going to post -

I am not trying to offend anyone here, but am I being unreasonable to wonder why Christians celebrate the pagan winter festival?

It's not just the date, it's also some of the traditions, like the yule log, the holly and ivy, the feasting. Not that it bothers me either way. I'm not a christian or a pagan. I celebrate because it would be snubbing my family not to, and because I could do with a bit of a knees-up at the darkest time of the year. :)

[TheCoalitionNeedsYou]

Because it's fun.

[TheCoalitionNeedsYou]

As far as I am concerned, Christmas has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.

[MrsChemist]

Tim Minchin sings a fab song about Christmas call White wine in the sun.

He sings about not being Christian but still loving Christmas because it's family time. It's on YouTube, I believe.

[2rebecca]

I agree it's a great Christmas song, have it on CD. My only southern hemisphere Christmas just felt wrong though, plus there was nothing to liven up the winter.

[FindingMyMojo]

well 25th December isn't REALLY Jesus's birthday you know OP. It if was surely there would be mention in the bible?

Most ancient peoples had midwinter celebrations to cheers them up in the deep of winter & acknowledge that the days will now be getting longer & spring is slowly on the way. They feasted, often for days, gathered with family, gave gifts etc. The 25th was declared as Jesus's birthday by a Roman Emperor shortly after the Romans converted to christanity. He actually wanted his people to stop celebrating a couple of ungodly pagan mid-winter festivals (Solis Invictus being one of them) without success, so eventually he declare the last day of the week long celebrations, the 25th December, to be Jesus's birthday & co-opted the existing festival.

What do you think Santa has to do with the birth of Jesus??? Do you have to be a Christian to 'believe' in Santa?

There are many non-religious reasons to celebrate, have a party at this time.

[MissMashMissMash]

I don't think any Christians actually believe that Jesus was born on Christmas day its just a day set aside to to celebrate his birth, existence and life etc.

Santa has nothing to do with Christmas in the Christian sense although lots of Christians do incoperate him somehow. Perhaps Mrs Tittle Mouse question is a good one, Why do Christians celebrate so many aspects of the pagan winter festival?

[Quenelle]

" Christ nailed it when it came to his teachings"

Nice one POF

[GetOrfMoiLand]

I am an atheist and love Christmas, including singing Christmas carols at the top of my voice.

i know that probably makes me a hypocrite but i adore Christmas and get excited - probably due to the fact that it is one of the few times that the family are together for any long period of time.

[Rockbird]

Christmas means different things to different people. It's easy. I'm Catholic so Christmas to me is about the nativity, with a good helping of family get togethers, nice food, Santy and pressies thrown in.

If I wasn't religious, then it'd be a lovely time marked by family get togethers, nice food, Santy and pressies.

I assume that most people are happy to go along with that side of it, even if they don't give two hoots about the religious aspect. I would imagine though that it's pretty hard for those who have a different faith and absolutely do not recognise Christmas because the whole country shuts down whether you like it or not and is completely taken over. I don't know anyone to ask as I sadly don't know many people of other faiths that well, with the exception of the large group of Jewish people that I work with, and all of them celebrate Hannukah whenever it falls and the some degree of Christmas.

I have skimmed as am at work so this may already have been answered :)

[Bonsoir]

I so agree, and I am often quite offended by my DP's Jewish family's attempts to impose their own Christmas traditions upon me.

[Littlepurpleprincess]

I am an athiest and I celebrate Christmas because it's a part of our cultural history. It has grown (as shown on this thread) to incorporate many aspects of different areas of British culture. Including Pagan traditions, christian traditions, and more modern ones (like the coke advert for example ).

There was a Pagan festival before there was a Christian festival. Maybe there was something else before that? Who knows where it truely started?

But this is what it is now. It's evolved again as more people are athiests.

And isn't it nice that we have the freedom to choose what and how we celebrate?

[StripeyMoon]

I think the pagan fesitval is actually based specifically on the winter solstace on the 21st December being the shortest day of the year as opposed to a general mid winter festival.

[Littlepurpleprincess]

I read somewhere that they used to use up as much food as possible, to show their God that they trusted him to give them just as much next spring. It was all about excess. So that's closer to what we do now than the Christian idea of christmas. i.e. we spend all our money and eat EVERYTHING in one day.

I don't know if that's right though, I'm not an expert on Pagans or anything.

[MissMashMissMash]

It is nice that we have the freedom to choose what and how we celebrate. Its also nice that there is crossover between the two. Eg Christians can celebrate family and be thankful for the things they have and non-Christians can explore the Jesus side of Christmas