to think the 'F' word is one we should be proud of......

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

Thanks to MN, especially dittany, Lenin, BoF and Anyfucker, I have been made aware of my casual attitude to misogyny. This short journey in my reclaiming my old values recently lead me to the London Feminist Network Conference on Saturday. And Oh my God it is one of the most inspirational things I've ever done.

Having money and being relatively attractive in my younger days I was mislead into thinking that being a feminist was irrelevant, after all we had a female PM and then 'girl power' where we were fooled into thinking with the right body shape and a little wit the world was our oyster (farm).

My husband's and friends' response to my recent activities have ranged from being mystified to mockery, from resentment to full on stereotypical prejudice. I am alarmed that barely any of my friends think feminism is relevant.

Am I being unreasonable to reclaim the word feminist to mean a person that wants to rid the world of gender prejudiced?

Lenin, there is no logic to it, it's jsut anti-feminist rhetoric. People like sm and ShriekingHarpy want to pretend that feminists are horrible harridans who just don't care about other people apart from the wimminz, it's a way of stereotyping us as man-haters and marginalising feminist voices.

And again, just for fun: Did you know that a tiny percentage of people who suffer hypothermia, are under the age of 50? Does that mean hypothermia isn't an elder issue?

Wouldn't someone who asserted that, simply be called stupid in a sane world? I think that hypothermia is overwhelmingly an elder issue in our society, because of the structural reasons why elders are more prone to suffering it. Am I now going to be accused of diminishing the suffering of younger victims of hypothermia, of not caring about them, of having a "so what" attitude to them? Or is common sense going to make an appearance at some point?

And how stupid to talk about safe sex with reference to HIV when people can get it from contaminated blood....

"I'm just surprised when intelligent people make such illogical and false comments about feminists and feminism"

I'm not. Anti-feminists will take any opportunity to try and convince everyone that feminism is a load of crap and feminists are horrible man-haters.

And the problem is, that other people listening who haven't got critical thinking skills, may buy their stupid arguments.

Oh yes Posie, HIV and AIDS, good one. Is HIV and AIDs a political issue for gay men? It's one of the biggest areas of activism for them, becuase they were one of the first groups (in the west) to be affected by it and because their treatment and the attitudes they encounter because of it, have been very specific and different to that of other groups who suffer from it (like haemophiliacs). Most gay men I know would absolutely say that HIV / AIDs is a gay issue - that doesn't mean they don't acknowledge that it is an issue for everyone and a specific issue for various other groups, or that they don't have any compassion or sympathy with non-gay sufferers.

But no-one is being tortuously illogical enough to accuse them of that, I think?

'If more men were as taken up by the issues and called themselves humanists, them perhaps there genuinely wouldn't be a need for feminism any more.'

That's a truly excellent point 5DollarShake.

When I've had the why feminism/why not equalism? argument in the past I've argued that if there was a big effective Equalism movement I would happily join it but up to this point the movement that has been politically effective on this issue is feminism so that is where I am campaigning.

Yes it's funny, I never meet equalists who are campaigning for equality. I only ever meet equalists who define themselves as such, in opposition to feminists. Funny that. Where are all their equalist campaigns?

YANBU - I'm proud to call myself a feminist, and to believe in equality for everyone. I see absolutely no conflict between the two, as surely they sit hand in hand.

To me anyone who believes in equality for one particular group of people, but does not believe in & support equality for all people is a hypocrite and a bigot and really needs to re-examine what they THINK they believe in.

So perhaps that makes me a humanist feminist?

No I think it makes you a common or garden feminist like the rest of us Finding.

I don't know any feminists who don't believe that equality is the right of all people.

exactly HB

I can see the thread has moved on considerably - but just to answer the query about why I wouldn't say "I am a feminist" while at the same time, refusing to be discriminated against as a woman - I don't necessarily feel the need to say it. It is not something I read very much about, or talk about - it is just something I DO, if that makes sense.

I might as well say "I am a woman", with the subtext of "I am a woman and I am proud to be one because of all that being a woman entails, and I will not apologise for, or be slighted for being a woman."

Yes - calling yourself a humanist (and I agree it's a misappropriated term) is a very passive, get-out-of-jail-free thing to do.

'I want good things for everyone'. . Well, unless you're a despotic dictator or a serial killer, then surely everyone does?

At least feminists focus on an area where there is significant unequally, highlight it and fight against it. And hopefully improve the situation for everyone - men included.

OP, YANBU.

I want to defend the use of statistics to indicate the gendering of social problems. Although statistics can be massaged or misrepresented, I still think they are important in helping us move towards a better understanding of reality. I'm disappointed to see statistics being dismissed on this thread when they show women experience more frequent sexual and domestic violence, but used implicitly to highlight men's less frequent experience of sexual and domestic violence. The gendering of violence comes out in numerous ways of looking at the problem, mirrored in the associated statistics. For example, the fact that one man is murdered each week in the UK by a partner or ex-partner is appalling, but the gender significance that such a murder rate is half the murder rate of women is significant.

Look at it another way. Take away all the statistics and then what would we know about anything and what could would improve?

Are there any real humanists out there? Or are they all people who think humanism is about equality of the sexes? (which it isn't).

hmm, I think next time someone tells me they're an equalist/humanist I'll ask them about which equalist campaigns they're involved in. If there were any I would love to know!

I'd ask equalists, "What are equalists doing to avoid maintaining the status quo of patriarchy/male domination?"

I love the search for the equalist campaigns :o

I was saying on another thread, one of the most common comments from those who wish to criticise/devalue feminism is that feminism hasn't done enough/everything it should have done.

E.g. feminism hasn't yet ensured a fairer system of parental leave. Feminism hasn't done enough to break down the gender stereotypes so that men who want to work as nannies or nurses can do so without comment.

But feminists are the ones saying that feminism is not over - there is more to do. So if you basically believe that these things should happen, become a feminist ally - don't sit back and wait for someone else to sort it out, and complain that they haven't.

EvilAntsAndMiasmas wrote - "one of the most common comments from those who wish to criticise/devalue feminism is that feminism hasn't done enough/everything it should have done."

Feminism is damned for doing too little and damned for doing too much. Some critics even manage to criticise from both angles simultaneously.

In order for women to be truly equal we need the Feminist Movement, it's not good enough to keep these thoughts to yourself. It's not good enough to just object, the mass grave full of slashed, raped and tortured women don't need your sympathy, they need your action, victims of FGM can be helped but not by sympathy alone and it's not good enough to say women should have equal pay and opportunity, without a common voice nothing will change.

97% to 4% in ten years of women 15-45 are victims of FGM in Ethiopia(an area of 1 million people). That change happened with constant action, education and working together with communities.

Because patriarchy and a male centered society in general has already pigeon-holed us! The point of feminism in my opinion is to liberate women from the imposed role of men's carers whilst they pursue their careers.

Why is it nonsensical to align myself with women, I do have a vagina and pretty sure I am one? Nothing restricting about being a woman, I'm also white, English a full range of things.

I think if you went to the New Orleans and asked people there to feel sorry for whites facing racism you may find them less than moved. And racism against white people is, generally, not in every corridor...we may occasionally get racial abuse but never being exploited like black people it's hardly the same is it. That's why black American's were particularly happy about a black president.

The day that sees white men suffering the same prejudice as a black man or a woman of any colour is the day the war on prejudice is won.

I just don't understand people that have to ensure everything is fair for women, what's wrong with that?

it's not about pigeonholing yourself, it's about noticing that other people have already pigeonholed you and fighting it.