Out of date EpiPens??

[Helpppp]

Hi there, I am involved in a number of First Aid courses and out of date EpiPens seem to be the best training tool we have! I am an EpiPen carrier myself but need a few more than just my own!! If you would be able to give us a hand and pass on a few of your out of date ones, it would be amazing.

Bare in mind, these are used to provide life saving training and could benefit you. Gotta be better than the bin!!

Thanks

No-one has said families shouldn't practice with an Epipen.

My concerns are that teens are being given out of date prescription only medication to 'play' with, with bloody great autoject firing needles inside them. Adrenaline when needed is a lifesaver, that is not in dispute. However an accidental injection of adrenaline into a person not experiencing anaphylaxis could cause side effects. Yes they are fairly short lived but best avoided really.

Helpppp Sun 21-Nov-10 14:16:13
"Yes, I am aware of the risks, it is a programme which we frequently use and are experianced with. Our main target audience is teenagers, this seems to be the only way we manage to fully keep their attention..."

I carefully stated that what people do in their own families is up to them. However, I absolutely maintain that posting out-of-date, prescribed medicines to an unknown person for use in a training setting is dangerous. I was not overstating the risks of adrenaline ad have no wish to deter people from using it appropriately. i deliver training to that exact end. However, all medicines carry a risk, it is there and risks should always be weighed against benefits in the context of law ie misuse of drugs/control of medicines and health and safety and work.

I reiterate - I would be v surprised if this is a registered training provider with public liability insurance. I notice the email address supplied is a web-based free one. I dislike the inference that those questioning this practice do not want lives to be saved.

Sorry, x-post BB, took too long to type!

agree with the last few posts re sending dangerous medication/sharps to an unknown person via the internet and a random email address.

I have just discussed this with our hospital pharmacist, who is involved with Resuscitation Training and she said a big resounding NO.

If you want to practice with your own adrenaline in your own home on whatever fruit or vegetable you consider appropriate, so be it.

On the other hand, to use adrenaline prescribed for someone else with teenagers (or anyone really) is in fact breaking the law.
It's a prescription only medicine. (But can be administered in a life threatening emergency to save a life by anyone who is trained to use it.)
But in a training environment, you would not be able to argue that case.
The risks of a teenager messing around and injecting themselves with non prescribed adrenaline are too great, and I would say no liability insurance would cover it.

why not ask the teenagers who carry epi pens to bring their out of date ones with them?

as long as you check they have new in date ones on them.

we practice with my own family and extended family with out of date epi pens on oranges.

we got through a whole practice , with body posistions and everything.

have to say that this works, twice my son has needed his epi pen, and its all gone very smoothly with out any panic.

practice does help.

Nottired:
"Adrenaline is not a controlled drug and I could legally import it into this country if I wished."
I didnt mention anything about controlled drugs.
Adrenaline is a prescription Only Medicine, an as such is subject to the Prescription only Medicines (Human Use) order 1997
Except:

Exemption for parenteral administration in an emergency to human beings of certain prescription only medicines

1. The restriction imposed by section 58(2)(b) (restriction on administration) shall not apply to the administration to human beings of any of the following medicinal products for parenteral administration?

Adrenaline Injection 1 in 1000 (1 mg in 1 ml) where the administration is for the purpose of saving life in an emergency.

Like I said, fine for the purpose of saving lives in an emergency.

Teenagers using someone elses Adrenaline to inject an orange (and risk accidently injecting themselves) are not covered by this exemption.
I have no idea if anyone would actually ever get prosecuted for being non compliant with the medicines order, but I can assure you if there was an accident, Liability insurance would not cover such a situation.

I use the training pens for anaphylaxis training. And while it is not "exactly" the same as injecting with an actual epipen, it does the job, and teaches how to administer the drug correctly.

Eragon, I believe absolutely that practice is important, and what you do with your own pens with your family is up to you.

What I am disagreeing with is a random First Aid Trainer requesting someone elses pens for training a bunch of teenagers.

They should put a tester pen in with every epipen first issued...

if the teens brought their own out of date epi pens, (as long as they had in date replacements on them ) they could use them on a orange , for practice and demonstration purposes.

in a group you dont need many to do the orange thing, just watching and listening to the click is enough to support learning, confidance and remove any fears about needles etc.

having heard from adults with allergy , who are not given or used the epi pen correctly the first time, such forward thinking is required. (one man told me he had been stabbed in the wallet in his jeans pocket by his wife when he had a severe allergic reaction!)

while i wont be posting to this person, if , say, the anaphylaxis campaign asked for some out of date epi pens, i would send them.

i have used a out of date epi pen on oranges in front of a group of people and it is a good learning tool. the trainer epi pens have there place, and should be used in a rehearsal type practice,(body positioning, counting etc) so that the routine is stuck in your head.

a trainer epi pen should never, never be put in the same bag, packet, that contains real epi pens. when searching for the real thing , you dont want to use the trainer!

You are confusing the misuse of drugs act with the medicines act.
Possession of prescription only medicines without a prescription is a criminal offence under the medicines act 1968.

Dispensing and administering (albeit inadvertent administration) of prescription only medicines is also an offence unless you have a licence/prescription.

Doesnt matter what you are going to be using them for. ie training
Like I said, cant see anyone actually getting prosecuted (and I have never actually heard of it happening) for having someone elses adrenaline, but if there was an accident I also cant see anyones first aider liability insurance covering it.

(Adrenaline is of course excempt from this in a life threatening emergency.)

Oh yes, and there are also some restrictions about sending prescription drugs in the post.

No Im not trying to tell you any such nonsense.

You are deliberately misinterpreting what I said.
Schools who look after adrenaline for children act in loco parentis. Therefore doesnt even vaguely resemble what I was talking about.

Possession of a prescription only medicine belonging to someone else is an offence.

And feel free to work your way through the medicines act, theres a lot of stuff in on since 1968, but FYI The medicine act covers manufacture, sale supply and import of drugs.
(I got my information from the hospital pharmacist as it happens)

I dont really think I have anything further to add to this thread.

I don't reckon anybody's public liability insurance would cover the use of 'real' epipens. The Acts are kind of irrelevant (except that maybe an organisation faced with a public liability claim might decide to foist responsibility on to an individual? - don't know, I'm not sure how that would work)

I've worked in many schools, youth clubs, voluntary organisations etc. and I'm pretty sure that none of them would knowingly sanction the use of 'live' epipens. You could possibly 'get away' with it in a good cause if you had a good relationship with the management and knew the young people extremely well.

Personally, I really don't think it's a risk worth taking - I know it's useful to hear that 'click' but I have nightmare visions of some rowdy teenagers trying to stab each other for a laugh... who would be responsible??? Can you imagine how you would feel if your teenaged son/daughter was stabbed with an adrenaline needle by a classmate??