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Adoption

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Adopting with a sex offender

51 replies

handp · 31/05/2023 17:10

My partner is about to be sentenced for something that happened. He was in a group where someone sent indecent images to everyone and they automatically saved onto his phone, he did not notice this as lots of other images were sent at the same time and didn't know about their existence until the police turned up. He still technically committed an offence because they were saved to his phone and there is no way of proving that he didn't see them. (please don't give me advice on whether to believe him, I do and there is no reason not too.) We have a 2 month old daughter but I want to adopt/foster in the future. He will be on the register for probably 5 years.

There is a blanket ban on all sex offenders adopting or fostering, however I can see that many people have challenged this, because you can be put on the register for many things such as public urination. My question is, would we even be allowed to apply in the future, and would they look at the facts of his case? He has a young brother and lives with our daughter and social services have assessed and said there is no risk there, would this be taken into account or would we have to go to court like others.

OP posts:
Ted27 · 03/06/2023 14:28

Im sorry @handp some things just don’t ring true

if you are so convinced of his innocence why would you sacrifice your family and your existing child for the sake of a hypothetical child.

I’m not sure the police have the capacity to monitor his every online move for 5 years. Is that their role anyway?
How could you be sure he wouldnt have another phone or device that you wouldnt know about.
If you are living as a family how on earth can you ensure he has no unsupervised access to your daughter, the use of the word access is interesting in itself.

I would be interested to hear more about these legal challenges you have referred to several times. Maybe you could provide some links to specific cases where a sex offender has overturned a bar to adoption.

Jellycatspyjamas · 03/06/2023 14:33

If I do stay with him for at least 5 years every online activity would be overseen by me and the police, he wouldn't be allowed unsupervised access to our daughter and after that statistically 10% reoffend.

So when you said social work didn’t consider your partner to pose a risk, you meant they had put safe care arrangements in place - ie no unsupervised access to your daughter. It’s not that they think there’s no risk, they’re managing the risk within the home which is a different thing.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say you’d make your daughter aware - would you be planning to tell a small child their dad is on the sex offenders register?

You’ve clearly done very well to overcome the challenges in your early life experiences. You’re clearly not dumb. Early experiences of abuse and being in care can impact us in various ways, one of which is being able to set and maintain safe boundaries, and being able to recognise risk - that’s not an intelligence thing, it’s part of our psychological make up. It’s worth considering whether your early experiences might have some bearing on your understanding of your current situation.

Even if there’s just a 10% reoffending rate after 5 years, it’s 10% too much for me to take with my kids

Lwrenagain · 03/06/2023 15:07

@handp I'm sorry if you're upset by some of the replies, genuinely, though IME this part of MN have been incredible to me and regular posters will go above and beyond to help anyone.
(I'm not an adopter but I may be one day)

I think you've done really well to accomplish the things you have and your daughter no doubt will be a credit to you.

But these parents commenting here, op, they're the parents who've taken on some of the most abused and distressed children of the country. Imagine some of the siblings from cases such as baby P (example, not a fact) etc, the parents in this forum are the people who are protecting those level abused children and I admit even with the small amount of experience I've had with caring for looked after children, I found your post very triggering.

I feel bad you're in this situation and I've also got tons of WhatsApp crap in my phone I've never looked at, so has my DP but neither of us or acquaintances would ever feel they could send us a file of child sexual abuse images. If my DP had even remote links to those people or I did, we'd leave the other in a heartbeat to minimise any risk to our kids and we are deeply in love so it would crush us both.

I'm sorry to read you've no chance of biologically having more children, it's weirdly tough to know that when your baby is so small, because it hurts whilst they're so little imagining this is your only go, so I fully understand and hope you manage to not dwell on future babies and enjoy the one you've got.

I hope everything goes smoothly for you in whatever you decide, but please, just out of even 0.5% doubt of your DH story, don't bring a child into the home that has already been through hell and back, to potentially put them at more risk of trauma and look after yourself, you've shitloads going on x

Jellycatspyjamas · 03/06/2023 15:42

however I've looked at cases where it has been overruled that's why I was asking,

Can you provide links/details please - I’m not aware of any cases where someone on the sex offenders register for a Schedule 1 offence (ie involving harm to children) have been allowed to adopt. As a child protection social worker I’m interested to see where that’s happened and what the process was.

The issue of things like urinating in public isn’t the same thing because the offence isn’t against a child and will be due to the particular behaviour reaching the threshold of indecent exposure - which can be seen to be subjective.

In terms of adopting in your own, a significant part of your assessment will be looking at your understanding of his offence, the steps you took to protect your child, the insight you have into the wider issues surrounding non contact sexual abuse and harm in general. Simply saying he’s innocent isn’t going to be helpful in that process.

I know you’ve had a bombshell dropped into your life not of your doing and you’ll be trying to envisage how life will be going forward. I hope you have good support around you going forward.

ababababa · 03/06/2023 16:56

You have to think... what Social Worker would place a child with you if you have deprived your child of a fantastic father purely to adopt.

There's no way that your partner's online activity can be monitored 24/7. Also it rings huge alarm bells that he pleaded guilty instead of fighting his innocence. Who would plead guilty to a sexual offence involving children as that has enormous consequences on that person.

ababababa · 03/06/2023 16:59

Also have you actually been to Information Evenings and spoken to SW's. They are the people who will advise you of the rules about who can adopt. If you have spoken to legal personnel that is sadly irrelevant as they have no involvement in recruiting potential Adopters for training.

PinkMimosa · 03/06/2023 18:52

Wow you've been through so much. First the abuse, then managing to overcome that and have your LO, then going through finish out your DP is a Sex Offender and that you are unable to have any future DC. I do admire you overcoming your abuse and the care system and you're definitely not stupid.

However, like a PP said, I do wonder if your early experiences are affecting your judgement slightly?

SS have said that you can't leave them alone, ever. Does that mean that you and DD have to sleep in a locked room away from him?

As for the monitoring of his online activities, I'm assuming you're referring to the tracing app which notifies you when it's switched off?

That's pretty easy to get around. The ex-family member had bought a new laptop within a month, so I assume he was still looking at Category 1 images.

I think you might be giving yourself a false sense of security if you think that by him using this monitoring process, you know he's no longer looking at images of DC being raped.

As for the 10% statistic, is it 10% that go on to be convicted? Judging by how long the man I know seemed to have been doing it before he was caught, I can't imagine the conviction rate is very high.

ohmustyou · 03/06/2023 19:47

I think in this situation, even if you walked away from him, social workers (and yes, you can sometimes appeal refusal to assess, and appeal approval. But there is no appeal at matching. So I think you'd find it very hard to get matched. Impossible, really.) are not going to place a child with you as things are.

I would spend a lot of time on yourself and your daughter, and therapy, and completely shelve adoption. You have enough on your plate. You don't sound in a position at all to offer a traumatised child a family just now. Take 15 years, say... Then come back to it, maybe?

vjg13 · 03/06/2023 20:03

ababababa · 03/06/2023 10:12

Adopter here. I have NC. Unfortunately any kind of criminal record on relation to sexual or cruelty offences involving children is an automatic blanket "you will not be considered". It is clearly written in numerous LA and Voluntary Agencies Adoption webpages.

Sorry.

Adoptee here, i have not name changed. I hope you actually meant 'fortunately'.

TallerSally · 03/06/2023 20:26

febrezeme · 03/06/2023 14:27

He is an absolutely incredible father and partner

And yet he is fully prepared to walk away from his child so you can adopt 🤔

Indeed.

OP, I’m struggling to make sense of your story. I can only imagine how awful it must be to share a child with a convicted sex-offender. But you appear determined to find ways to expose further vulnerable children to harm by bringing them into your family, and this is raising serious alarm bells.

So, you “got advice” that you can adopt if your partner “vanishes” from your life. Firstly, being told “you can adopt” is no guarantee that you will adopt, like being told “you can win the EuroMillions jackpot” – hardly a basis for making life plans that could harm your daughter. I outlined in my earlier post the hurdles you’d have to overcome at every step of an adoption process, with make-or-break decisions made completely out of your control by dozens of total strangers including lay panel members who will be as horrified as the posters on this thread (in reference to your earlier comment, many posters here have quite a lot of adoption experience and expertise). This means you have pretty much zero chance of adopting in the UK, even if you separate from your partner, as unless he is in jail without parole there will always be the possibility of contact, given how much you seem to be in love with him and think he’s a great dad.

Second, your partner cannot just walk away from his parental responsibility. Besides the psychosocial dimension, as a law student you (should) know that parental responsibility is a legal responsibility, you can’t just dispose of it, least of all to support your partner’s adoption pipe dreams. That you and your partner are claiming that he is be prepared to do this will be seen as highly suspect, reflecting poorly on you too, and rightly so. What about the best interests of your daughter?

Then, either your partner is low-risk for contact with your daughter, and it will be in her best interests to maintain some form of contact with him, even if supervised, meaning you can forget adoption. Or he is high-risk and barred from contact, meaning you can still forget adoption unless as I mention above he’s jailed for life without parole: if not, what’s to prevent him from moving to a non-Hague country and you bundling your birth and adopted children on a plane and joining him there? Which is why no-one will take the risk of putting an adopted child in your care, even if you claim to be NC with your sex-offender partner, which no-one sensible will believe. Social workers see parents attempt all sorts of tricks to retain or gain access to vulnerable children – though I have to say “my convicted sex-offender partner and father of my child has agreed to never see our child again so I could try to adopt another child” is a new one.

At the end of the day this is NOT going to be your decision, but social work teams' and the courts', and having spent more time than I can count with/in them (and I would wager far more than you have), I can assure you that you'll be VERY hard pressed to find a social worker or judge or other child welfare professional who’ll buy into your story. And believe me, you'll need ALL of them to buy into it, as all it takes is one "NO" for your adoption dream to collapse. And thank goodness for the vulnerable children of Britain and elsewhere. Given that you claim to have once been one of them, I simply cannot fathom how you can be seeking to set up such a convoluted and child-harming proposition. Perhaps think more about the children’s best interests, and less about your own wishes (or your partner’s)?

OP: you came here for advice, you’ve got it. Sorry it isn’t what you wanted to hear. Perhaps raise your daughter to adulthood safely then revisit?

ifchocolatewerecelery · 04/06/2023 09:50

I can only sympathise with your situation. I don't understand your reference to it being a judge's choice as to whether it goes to conviction or caution though.

Based on the fact that you are on a forum dealing with adoption in the U.K. that is where I am assuming all this has happened. In the U.K. the police investigate a crime and pass it to the crown prosecution service, the CPS, if they wish to press charges. If it goes to Crown court where the judges are you will be convicted in such cases by a jury not the judge. The judge is there to provide directions on the law to the jury and sentence not convict.

A caution is issued by the police for low level offences/first time offenders. A police caution can only be issued if the offender admits they are guilty.

The first thing my criminal law lecturer drummed into us at university was to never ever sit in a police interview under caution without legal representation even if you are innocent.

Putting the adoption/fostering issue for you to one side for a minute, I would just like to point out that there is an actual victim involved in this who will spend the rest of their live with indecent images of themselves floating around the internet. How do you think that person would feel about this?

ahorsecalleded · 05/06/2023 05:58

I'm sorry, I know you are dealing with a lot, but even having a partner who has acquaintances/friends/family who have access to images of children being sexually abused and are happy to share those images would be absolutely horrifying to most people, let alone the professionals who have the responsibility for finding families and homes for adoptive or foster children.

He is obviously not going to be approved to adopt as per previous posts, and I given that you aren't able to understand that the line that has been crossed by him and his friends is so non-negotiable and so inexcusable would mean you wouldn't be considered either.

I hope this all works out ok for you and your DC and you both can be safe, but I think it's unlikely you can adopt, and it's for the best, even if you can't see that right now.

Coffeelotsofcoffee · 05/06/2023 17:36

I'm sorry but I don't understand how someone can share indecent images of a child on a wassap group without being pretty dam sure that all other members of the group are complicit and willing to receive those messages

LadyMacbethWasMisunderstood · 06/06/2023 00:15

He most definitely will not be permitted, ever, to adopt. Just try to imagine how the public confidence in the adoption process would be undermined were that to happen.

He pleaded guilty. You are essentially asking children’s services to go behind that plea. That is beyond looking at context. I would have thought as a law student you would understand the effect of a guilty plea.

The fact that children’s services have assessed him as low risk and have not sought to remove your child from your care is fortunate for you both. But you will understand that the test for removing children (risk of significant harm) is very different from the test to have a vulnerable placed in your care.

Lwrenagain · 06/06/2023 07:06

Coffeelotsofcoffee · 05/06/2023 17:36

I'm sorry but I don't understand how someone can share indecent images of a child on a wassap group without being pretty dam sure that all other members of the group are complicit and willing to receive those messages

If it was one image, I suppose it could be a mistake, but it's just so odd.
A school mum once sent her tits to a group along with a meme about the kids being off school.
So these things can happen.
But one image sent with 100s I couldn't understand why you'd say you're guilty.
That's the 🚩for me. It does seem an easy mistake, can't imagine why you'd not fight it.

My DP had to turn the WhatsApp setting of pics sharing to his phone off because his lads group were sending some gross toilet humour stuff and he's not got a strong stomach for anything like that. Sometimes he'd be looking back for something and there would be something disgusting and it he'd never noticed and it would ruin his day, bless him 😂 but there's a difference to a bunch of men who haven't matured since 10 playing "who's poo" to indecent images of a child abuse victim being sent, I just don't know how in a group so large not one person was like, "WTF!!!" If it was an accident.
That's the bit I just don't understand, surely not everyone missed it?
When the school mum accidentally (and she was mortified!) sent boobs, we collectively encouraged her to start an only fans.

It makes no sense to me.

I have actually seen, once, a single image of CP, it was in my tweens when the Internet was in its infancy and our PC got a virus, it was flooded with porn and amongst it one image was there, its actually haunted me, I was older than the little girl in the picture and it genuinely traumatised me, at first I thought it was funny, penises randomly showing up, it was just rude. Then that image came up and I couldn't use the computer again, it really devastated me.

So I can't imagine that not one person in such a large group didn't kick up a fuss.
🚩🚩🚩

CristinaNov182 · 06/06/2023 11:29

@handp you said “It was an image dump from someone who he did not know and alongside many other things (thousands) that were sent to him so got lost among photos on his phone. “

So that “someone he didn’t know” exposed himself to the risk of prison for no reason?

you also say “There are sick sick people out there that literally do this to get people into trouble.”

but these people put themselves as well at risk of “trouble”!!! Bigger risk and more prison time, bc they are the initiator!

hopefully that guy got convicted as well

it only makes sense if pedos share images to other “trusted” pedos and to have deniable plausibility it makes sense they would also send it among other 100s of unrelated images , no?

makes more sense than someone sending these abhorrent pics to random unknown numbers on the internet (?!), it is also not possible you’d “missdial” as you’ll make sure no digit is wrong when you are at big risk of imprisonment

another red flag 🚩 is him accepting the guilty plea, what do you mean you didn’t have money? Is it not possible to get public defence?! Or do a crowdfund to all the family and friends that must know this man as a good person?!

I’m sorry you’ve been duped but you also talk of your daughter’s safety in %! Who does that? 10% wow!

and your wonderful partner and amazing dad cares so much about his DD that he’s ready to never see her again for the sake of a potential unknown child!

you say you didn’t want to deprive your DD of an amazing dad, but you actually do want that - when you get the 2nd child! How does it make sense?

nothing does here

CristinaNov182 · 06/06/2023 11:40

I can’t get my mind around an innocent father agreeing to a guilty plea for sex offences knowing that he has a young daughter that will come to know of it when she grows up (or in 5 years as this is the case!),

can’t imagine how you’d agree to a guilty plea so you can never be alone with your daughter!,

can’t imagine how you’d agree to a life forever under suspicion and won’t find to death against it

TallerSally · 06/06/2023 17:41

As a parent OP’s story makes so little sense, what if there was an alternative explanation?

Parents get a lot of training about grooming. In one scenario sexual predators target vulnerable women, often abuse victims (including care leavers), though any vulnerable individual can be targeted - irrespective of IQ, level of education or socio-economic status. Predators deploy various strategies to win their target’s trust, e.g. becoming the ‘perfect’ partner or parenting figure the target never had growing up. They aim to gain access to the vulnerable target’s children. The grooming can take place over weeks, months or years, as the predator patiently works to gain control. Hiding in plain sight, he remains connected to other child molesters, sharing abuse content, and tips on grooming and avoiding getting caught.

As others have pointed out, there are too many red flags in OP’s story. To be clear, I am definitely NOT stating that OP is a victim of a grooming sexual predator: I know nothing of her, other than what she posted here, I am saddened by what she's described of her situation, and wouldn’t want to upset her further as she (hopefully) shelves her adoption/fostering dreams to put child protection and welfare where it should be, i.e. FIRST.

But what I’m finding particularly alarming is that OP’s story is consistent with grooming. Vulnerability, due to a background as an abuse victim in the care system. Convicted sex-offender partner taking a guilty plea while claiming innocence (better 5yrs on the SOR for the crime you got caught for than a custodial sentence for an as yet undetected crime?), being in a network of sex-offenders, saying he’s willing to walk out of his child’s life so OP can foster or adopt (access more vulnerable children?). OP believing him fully and defending him so staunchly, when everyone else is horrified. OP’s insufficient regard for the harm that a vulnerable adoptee and her own DD would be exposed to in her family (“10% risk is OK!”), and for the harm experienced by the child abuse victim(s) whose photos her partner’s friends were sharing around. General lack of understanding that child protection is the imperative here, and that ANY risk of exposing a vulnerable adoptee to a sex-offender is completely unacceptable from the get-go. As PPs have said, it suggests someone with clouded judgement... Highly educated but vulnerable people can fall for the “perfect partner and parent” grooming act too.

I sincerely hope for OP’s sake, and even more so for her DD’s, that the above is completely and utterly wrong. OP you’ve been through a lot, with a challenging background of abuse and care-experience to recover from - there’s a reason more than 1 in 4 mums with children placed for adoption are care leavers – and you are clearly a survivor, having made it to a law degree. But add to that having a convicted sex-offender as a partner, with whom you share a now vulnerable child, and you already have more on your plate than many people can handle. You’d have to be an incredibly well-adjusted adult and a super-parent to successfully safeguard and raise a vulnerable adoptee to adulthood in addition to coping with all the above. From what you’ve been writing here, you’re quite some way from that.

Instead of gearing up to fight adoption agencies and LAs in Court to put a vulnerable child in harm’s way (good luck with that), you may want to reflect on whether the path you’ve chosen as a mum remaining with and defending a convicted sex offender is consistent with being an independent-minded, outstanding, child-focused parent. And take an honest look at what else might be going on in your interactions with your convicted sex-offender partner.

ababababa · 06/06/2023 18:14

@handp I hope you are still here and reading these messages.

Everyone here has the welfare of you and your child in our thoughts. We are trying to help you and that includes being clear that your adopting a child will not happen. At least one children's social worker has spelt this out very clearly.

I have been thinking about you a lot. As an Adopter anyone who in any way triggers my child let alone is a danger to them is out of the door. End of. There is zero chance of my incredibly vulnerable child being around someone who may hurt them in any way.

X

freedomseeking · 10/06/2023 11:47

Hi OP,

I am a barrister. I have prosecuted and represented defendants in sexual offences for 20 years.

I can assure you that there are not thousands of people walking around with convictions for possession of indecent images of children ("IIOC") because they accidentally kept an indecent image by mistake.

Firstly, because the police have to find him in the first place. Presumably the "group" was a paedophile ring? Who sends IIOC to a random large group of people when you don't think that the recipients would welcome the image? The police are not randomly checking people's phones. They are targeting the organised crime groups who distribute this material to a willing audience.

I am trying to think if I have ever represented a sex offender charged with this offence who has not gone down the "oh, oops, I cannot imagine how this ended up on my phone" route. They all say it. Exactlyy like your partner, whatever the strength of the evidence. Of all the criminals, sex offenders are the most in denial, and often the most articulate and persuasive.

Just to deal with the law briefly - it is a defence to a s160 offence for D to prove that (a) he did not see the photograph and (b) he did not know or have cause to suspect that the indecent photograph was of a child.

Through his guilty plea, he is accepting he saw the photograph. Even if he did not suspect it to be of a child, he is accepting he saw (and kept) a sexual photograph of a very young person.

It's a matter for you whether you stay with him, but I would invite you to be highly skeptical. Not all become contact offenders - but some do. The stakes for your daughter are too high.

ababababa · 10/06/2023 11:58

Thanks you @freedomseeking for this response.

Coffeelotsofcoffee · 10/06/2023 20:44

freedomseeking · 10/06/2023 11:47

Hi OP,

I am a barrister. I have prosecuted and represented defendants in sexual offences for 20 years.

I can assure you that there are not thousands of people walking around with convictions for possession of indecent images of children ("IIOC") because they accidentally kept an indecent image by mistake.

Firstly, because the police have to find him in the first place. Presumably the "group" was a paedophile ring? Who sends IIOC to a random large group of people when you don't think that the recipients would welcome the image? The police are not randomly checking people's phones. They are targeting the organised crime groups who distribute this material to a willing audience.

I am trying to think if I have ever represented a sex offender charged with this offence who has not gone down the "oh, oops, I cannot imagine how this ended up on my phone" route. They all say it. Exactlyy like your partner, whatever the strength of the evidence. Of all the criminals, sex offenders are the most in denial, and often the most articulate and persuasive.

Just to deal with the law briefly - it is a defence to a s160 offence for D to prove that (a) he did not see the photograph and (b) he did not know or have cause to suspect that the indecent photograph was of a child.

Through his guilty plea, he is accepting he saw the photograph. Even if he did not suspect it to be of a child, he is accepting he saw (and kept) a sexual photograph of a very young person.

It's a matter for you whether you stay with him, but I would invite you to be highly skeptical. Not all become contact offenders - but some do. The stakes for your daughter are too high.

Yes exactly. Thanks for this excellent response

Usertumster · 15/06/2023 21:40

@freedomseeking excellent post, thank you.

I am clearly a Luddite and have just looked at my WhatsApp settings. Photos people send me aren’t saved to my phone? I can’t see anything in settings about this, but they’re only added to my photos if I actually save that photo “to photos”. Happily I have never been sent anything dodgy. But I’d love to understand the tech!

2bazookas · 21/06/2023 22:41

Were they indecent images of children?

If so I doubt and adoption agency will accept him.

What sentence is he expecting?

SiouxsieSiouxStiletto · 22/06/2023 07:45

This is such a good post. @handp I hope that you're still around and have read it.

Of all the criminals, sex offenders are the most in denial, and often the most articulate and persuasive.

This rings particularly true in our experience. And as freedom says, the stakes really are too high for your DD.

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