Attention seeking aggression

[Aswegoalong]

I posted on here before about our recently placed 18 month old. I got some great advice about how to handle his meltdowns which now thankfully have decreased in length. I am now struggling with the appropriate reaction to his aggressive behaviour with me in particular. With both my husband and I he can be quite willful but mostly relaxed and cooperative in the end but some of the time if and when he wants to express his frustration, it seems to be more directed at me. He'll hit me in the face and I will stop him by holding his arms and firmly but naturally saying 'no' and if it happens more than a couple of times, standing up and distancing myself from him. I am wondering whether I am being too neutral in my voice, I don't want to show anger. I know he needs to get his feelings out because he's been through such a massive upheaval but this (unpredictable) behaviour is chipping away at my energy and I don't want to set a precedent for being used as an emotional punch bag.

I would advise to check out credentials of advisers to see if they are clinical psychologists or psychiatrists or similar, and if not to check with them whether or to what extent their suggestions are evidence based.

Evidence base comes from peer reviewed research across a range of disciplines, including psychology and psychiatry, but also social work, psychotherapy, sociology, education, paediatrics. Once someone has completed research and it’s been peer reviewed it joins the body of evidence for that subject area, which then is translated into practice. All of these disciplines have something to contribute to the body of evidence relating to therapeutic parenting.

Or perhaps I should tell one of the leading experts in adoption, whose work forms the basis of understanding child development and parenting for the last 30 years that her work isn’t evidence based because she’s not a psychologist. Or maybe I could explain to the leading expert in post traumatic growth and child development that his work isn’t evidence based because he’s not a psychologist - despite holding a Professorship at a Russel Group university and being published internationally.

I know you have a thing for clinical psychology but to suggest only they can establish an evidence base for practice is utterly disrespectful of a whole range of academics working in this field.

@jellycatspyjamas I can't really respond unless you tell me who the "leading experts" are in the second paragraph and what their academic backgrounds are? Or perhaps I should tell one of the leading experts in adoption, whose work forms the basis of understanding child development and parenting for the last 30 years that her work isn’t evidence based because she’s not a psychologist so you are saying that she has overseen research which has been peer reviewed?

I said that clinical psychologists and psychiatrists were expert and highly qualified practitioners - they draw on the peer reviewed research.

My only mention of someone establishing practice was re DPP because DPP is not itself evidence based, I was simply noting that Dan Hughes is highly qualified as a practitioner because the OP had mentioned him.

I didn't pass comment at all on the range of academics working in the field, as my post was about "evidence based" vs "not evidence based" advice - ie - either it is or it isn't. You are right that the research itself will come from a number of sources.

Once someone has completed research and it’s been peer reviewed it joins the body of evidence for that subject area, which then is translated into practice Yes this is right - nothing I said says otherwise. My distinction was between parenting advice which is evidence based - and that which is not.

In terms of practitioner, clin psychs and psychiatrists and ed psychs will have the highest expertise and broadest knowledge base of research and there is a presumption that they follow evidenced based principles, I believe. But after saying check credentials of a practitioner, what I then said was for a practitioner not falling into the above, look at whether the advice being given is evidence based - do you not agree with that? I hope that the distinction is clear.

If I don't respond immediately it is because I may not be able to access mumsnet for a few days after this evening.

Thanks again everyone from your input. Having talked to a counsellor and attachment specialist, the consensus seems to be to avoid other children for now as me having to tell him off causes shame and it's important for him to be successful. They say that minimal occasional connections with one specific child may work providing they are not over ambitious - as little as half an hour at a time. Which doesn't exactly make it easy to arrange in winter when we rely on the weather to meet out. We've been advised that now it's all about the attachment building between us. We've at least managed to steer him away from hitting biting and scratching us with the work we've done over the last couple of months, thanks in large part to your advice on here. He does still do it but it's not compulsively like it used to be. What is compulsive is the way he does it with any child that comes near and the more we say no biting/hands are not for hitting etc the worse it gets. Going to post this now cos he's waking up but just quickly thanks for reminder about Penelope leach!

You're doing brilliantly.

I hope you get a cup of tea and some chocolate today!

That sounds really positive - it’s good to have a plan in place!

Oh no! I typed a really long reply here yesterday and somehow didn't press 'post'! The gist of it was - in keeping with your advice, our counsellor and SW recommended keeping it all on the down low and avoiding playgrounds because now is all about us creating our bond and we don't want to constantly be saying 'no' - it was getting really extreme - like he got hooked in the negative feedback loop and was compulsively going for every kid we bumped into. Now we are just hanging out the three of us and it all feels a lot more chilled. What we were advised to do at the beginning but I didn't have the balls. His behaviour has really shown us what we needed to do and he is very content with pottering round the park and the beach just looking at nature. The experts say not to worry about socialisation as this will take place in the future and like some of you have pointed out we can expect some learning delay because of the circumstances and to treat him like a younger child in terms of expectations and interactions. Makes life a whole lot easier and less fraught with social anxiety (his and ours). Thanks again for Penelope Leach recommendation. Will look her up. Xx

Your updates sound really fantastic, it is so great that he is happy around you both. When you try him being around other kids again, keeping it to half an hour max like your counsellor said will also help you work out strategies for helping him socialise. One thing you could do is take him to the play areas when they are empty or very quiet and play with him like another child would, climbing and playing in sand or whatever, so that he feels he "owns" the space and also because play areas are really good for physical development and mind body connection as jellycat has said on another thread - climbing, hanging, swinging etc - you may well do that already!

Great update. Well done.

Hi there, back again, with more or less the same problem, except that now we've known our DS longer, it feels as if there is room for manouevre with our reactions to the situation. We were back in playgrounds no problem until about 3 weeks ago, when the hitting started again, both of other children (anyone from baby to 12 year old today!) and of us at home. We were advised by the psychologist to explain that we should preface playground time with a chat: 'play gently or we will need to leave', but inevitably after a few minutes, he sees someone who is innocently playing nearby and wants their toy or someone is ahead of him on the slide and he pushes them. I am trying to be glued to his side and prevent most situations but with the escalation of hitting at home, it's as if he is actively seeking out reactions from us. We are trying to make them as boring as possible, but to reiterate our story, he is adopted and it feels as if he is deliberately continuing until he provokes a reaction. My question is about consequences. The psychologist says - leave the playground immediately the behaviour starts. Sometimes this feels extreme and I feel it is more apt to give him a warning. (We always leave after 3 pushes). She also says that it's not necessary to isolate him completely and having been so isolated since we adopted him 8 months ago, that would feel very extreme. We want to help him to learn to be in the presence of other children but his behaviour is very unpredictable. The pushing/hitting can't be explained by any single factors - e.g. child being smaller or challenging him for attention or being in the way. Sometimes he will cross the playground just to hit someone on the other side (hence us not being able to leave him at all). What would the natural/logical consequences of his behaviour be? Carrying him out of the playgrounds bawling his eyes out feels much too dramatic and likely to provoke a compulsion to repeat the behaviour. We tried getting him to look at the other child and notice the impact of his behaviour 'does she look happy?' as recommended by an educationalist but this winds the other parent up. Getting him to say 'sorry' seemed to work as a natural consequence on and off because he seems to feel ashamed. My husband has just commented 'it's not an angry behaviour'. We think it may be connected to what he witnessed/experienced in his birth family - even though he was only 4 months when he left, as well as remembering the contributing factors of his moving to us and missing his foster parents. He's now 26 months.
Do we have to avoid playgrounds again for a while? It's been harder to manage in lockdown as you're not supposed to drive places - we live in the town centre, so parks are our lifeline. We could just spend time in the open spaces but he does ask to go to the playground.
When we talk about it at bedtime, he knows what to say to show he understands, but he just can't manage to play peacefully at the time.
Thanks in advance for any ideas.
I will of course reread the posts, but at the moment can't see the wood for the trees and trying to understand the natural consequences part of NVR.

When you say psychologist do you mean you are seeing a clinical psychologist? They don't usually recommend consequences?

Unless you mean their advice to leave the playground, did they describe that as a consequence?

I am only asking to find out what strategies you have been trying already.

Can you think back to what if anything changed 3 weeks ago in other ways?

Hi again @sassygromit. Thanks for your reply. It is a clinical psychologist but I've had a conversation with a 'triple p' specialist today which was much more helpful and I am looking forward to trying her strategies when we next go to a playground (interestingly she says to go as much as possible). We will keep visits short though and speak about 'rules' before we go in. If he pushes/hits anyone, I am to get down to his level and ask him what the rules are, I.e. keep our hands and feet to ourselves and then say 'let's try again', but only give him one such warning before leaving if he does it again. This makes a lit more sense to me than the 'no' he now seems to be seeking out or getting him to say sorry as that is really not working. The fact that other parents will see me talking to him will appease them and my need to be seen to be dealing with the behaviour. I think this is 90% of the problem as a lot of parents are horrified when it happens and I think I need to repair the damage.
In terms of what may have changed, the playgrounds were busy at February halfterm. It started then but they are not particularly busy now.

What the triple p person and the clinpsych sound perfect to me, they are sort of the same thing - the taking him out isn't intended to be a punishment it is more that he will only be hitting and pushing if he is overwhelmed/fearful/angry and you take him out because he isn't going to be having a good experience if he is overwhelmed/fearful/angry. You want the play area to be somewhere to run around and have fun. Everything she says and it is pretty much the same as what ahaparenting says.

He might be trying to get your attention because he feels overwhelmed/unable to have fun/etc.

Another thing you could think about is when you go, what time of day, how much sugar he has had - so if it is local if you walk as much as possible rather than go in pram this will help him feel calmer, not so much full of pent up energy - work out if he is best there in the morning or early evening, and when younger and older kids are there and what works best for him?

Sometimes you might feel it best for him to pull him out straightaway and at other times give warnings. Also in the future, you might be able to pull him away, calm him down, remind him and then go back in.

You said that the strategy you were given upthread helped and if he has been knocked off his feet a bit doing the same thing again might help - extra tlc, working out if he is trying to communicate sommat to you, reminding him with the books about keeping hands to himself, lots of talking (as per what your therapist said)

I think it is to be expected to have to regularly go through the same things with dc to a greater or lesser extent from time to time over a period of years, but as they grow the amount of time needed to remind grows less, the self control grows better. Connection is the key thing, so definitely don't ignore the behaviour, help him see you are in it together.

it all sounds great.

PS try not to care too much about other parents, other than to stop your dc hitting their dc. We have French links and I actually love the way the French do it - just picking up the screaming toddler and carrying them off, the parent poised with a serene expression on their face and the screaming and air punching toddler sat elegantly on their forearm as though they were an upmarket accessory...

Just going back to your earlier posts, I also don't think it is shaming to the dc unless it is done in a shaming way, for a toddler.

Yes, his early experiences will have had a dramatic impact on him and probably always will, but the times with you will also have a dramatic impact.

Thank you very much sassygromit. It helps to hear that the strategies are not necessarily pointless just because they don't work straightaway. I feel very dejected right now because I lined up another activity today - walking around a park with a friend (who I haven't seen for a year) and her children (4 yr and 2.5 yr). He was pushing them throughout and successfully pushed the younger one over a couple of times, making him cry. The older one braved it out with him, even trying to hug him a few times which he seemed to enjoy but then he went in for a hug and pushed her right in the face which really shocked her. I felt terrible especially as he has been more dysregulated than usual the last few days and having driven to see them, it wasn't a case of being able to get straight back in the car to leave after the regulation 2 strikes. I feel like I'm sending mixed messages to him (although I had told myself before that as it wasn't a playground, we could play it by ear), I feel it was confusing to him. Reading your interpretation of how it is for him makes me feel more sympathetic, but this constant, compulsive pushing feels much more like a reaction to our changing strategies of dealing with the behaviour as well as a communication that he simply can't be around other children in any shape or form for the timebeing if we are to have any quality of experience together. As it is, I am still unable to relax and feel positive 2 hours after the event. I was so hopeful earlier today and I feel responsible for sabotaging what could have been a lovely afternoon by expecting more of him than he could cope with.

PS I am also a fan of the French method, though I didn't realise it was theirs.

Hi OP, I sometimes think that our children smell our fear (a bit like cats and dogs who make a beeline for non-animal lovers!) Maybe your little fella is picking up on your stress and anxiety around these visits, if you’re constantly on edge waiting for the next incident, and then, lo and behold, a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Do you have a scooter or balance bike, do you take tubes of bubbles, boxes of chalks, or balls or other activities with you to the playground? Many of our children simply cannot cope with unstructured free time so I would embrace your inner Mary Poppins and take as many fun things with you (carpet bag not necessary ) in order to keep your boy busy and entertained while still enjoying the playground experience. Plenty of snacks, and drinks, too, in case the hitting episodes are related to hangriness.

I’d avoid busy times and instead go when it’s raining (invest in a good waterproof coat and a great thermos for yourself) or at teatime (pack a picnic or enjoy hot chips on a bench) so there are fewer potential ‘victims’ around.

You sound like a very insightful and resourceful adopter, but please try not to let your son be cast as the ‘naughty’ one among your friends’ children. Sincerely, ALL toddlers do push and hit but I think, as adopters, that we are so vigilant and hyper vigilant with regards to behaviours, that we can get hung up on stuff that other parents can easily brush off as kids being kids and learning about the world and their place in it. This, of course, has been much harder during the pandemic with the suspension of playgroups and other age-appropriate activities.

Stick to your son like glue and maybe even join him on the play equipment? Best to pre-empt any possible incidents than have a spoilt outing. Other reasonable parents do, generally, appreciate sincere apologies for behaviour lapses on your child’s behalf.

Good luck, OP, your son needs to play!

I was so hopeful earlier today and I feel responsible for sabotaging what could have been a lovely afternoon by expecting more of him than he could cope with.

I think you’re being hard on yourself here - he needs the opportunity to try social situations or he’ll not learn how to cope with them, and you won’t know his limits. I’ve been guilty of thinking I could go with the flow and then finding that my kids really couldn’t cope with whatever situation. You can’t keep him (and therefore you) separate forever - so while it’s challenging for you both, and you need strategies in place - it’s also part of daily life.

If you are changing things, what has worked to some extent is talking about where we’re going and what we’re doing, with a reminder of the rules (in my case my then 4 year old would bolt so lots of talk about staying close to mummy, and if he ran he’d need to walk holding my hand etc). Getting down to his level, explaining the rules, and explaining what would happen if he was struggling (especially if it’s going to be different) helped him behave nicely and also gave him permission to come and walk with me if he was struggling. He would get to the point of asking if he could hold my hand which was code for us both knowing he was finding it hard and we’d talk through how much longer we’d be there, when we’d leave etc.

On a walk could the agreement be that if he hits, he comes and walks with you for two lampposts (or other visible measure) and can then try again? With the knowledge that if it’s too hard and he needs to walk with you it’s ok - so that it’s not a “punishment”, but a way of him having a safe place when out for a walk?

I don't approve of all French child rearing practices, though, haha.

I have attached two aha blog posts which broadly speaking say the same thing as the clin psych and triple p but they give more narrative about it which you might find helpful.

www.ahaparenting.com/blog/child_hits_parent
www.ahaparenting.com/blog/Dealing_with_Your_Own_Feelings_When_Your_Child_Hits

I agree with pp about being onside with him, but to be lighthearted about it, ALL parents go thru' the walk of shame at one time or another, most parents will have been through it and will sympathise and some will be taking mental notes when you deal with it like a pro.

I hope you get back to some equilibrium soon!

Hi #sassygromit. I hadn't logged back in for a while, so didn't see your reply. Thanks very much for posting again. I will have a look at aha parenting - I don't know about letting him try again - as it would be backtracking on what we have done so far and I want to be consistent - but there are different types of hitting - some are more deliberate than others and if it seems as if it is somehow with a cause eg - when someone else has a toy he wants, then it could work to let him try again. The most upsetting one for me is when he hits or pushes babies or toddlers who are just minding their own business and that seems to be totally involuntary on his part, so I am really struggling to work out what is best to do. Obviously, I have to get him away from the victim for their safety. The psych believes once he is dysregulated, he shouldn't be given another chance because he will definitely do it again. For now, I am carrying him off under protest. I feel very far off equilibrium at the moment.

She’s right that if he’s dysregulated he’ll do it again, because it’s a stress response and he literally won’t be able to reason with himself or use the other strategies you give him. You could try helping him to regulate again - sensory stuff is good for that with children. So taking him away from the situation maybe to a quieter part of the park, giving him a drink or snack (because that engages him in a sensory way), playing with sand, a fidget toy, playing singing and clapping games, throwing and catching a ball with him etc. If he’s dysregulated it’s not really a behaviour/discipline issue, it’s an emotional response so sanctions won’t work because he can’t make the link cognitively because his cognitive thinking is “off line”.

In time I became able to spot the signs my two were becoming dysregulated and could remove them from the situation before they lashed out, which was better all round. It’s good that you’re starting to see the difference between him hitting intentionally and when he seems to hit at random, keep watching and you’ll spot when he’s struggling and you can distract him and try some more grounding type activities and possibly catch it in time.

Thanks very much again #SassyGromit, and I really appreciate you taking the time to write. I've realised the issue with the advice I get when I ask this question, it must be that I haven't communicated clearly enough in which situations the hitting/pushing is occurring.

All the advice I have been following is based on the principle that he is acting out of anger and that his behaviour is coming from frustration and I think that most of the time, he is hitting out because he is overstimulated: When I read the Ahaparenting advice, it refers to fear and that the child who hits is showing they are afraid. In his case, I think it could be more accurately described as overwhelm.

I actually think our response as guided by the clinical psych needs to change. Having read your advice and remembering what we did originally when he was bearhugging younger children and wrestling them to the ground, I am now going to revert to what we did then. It actually worked for that month when we had none of that behaviour in either November or December. The counsellor we had at the time (who I mistrusted because she didn't have as many letters after her name), suggested that we give him other ways to show his excitement when he sees other children and for a while, he was jumping instead of hugging. This came to me when he headbutted me tonight at bedtime, when I thought we were having an intimate wind down before bed. I realised I was reacting as if he had done it intentionally and felt my anxiety about him ever learning to not be violent surfacing. I am going to have a go at reframing it in my mind so that I can try to redirect him each time he does something that could be interpreted as violent. In my case, it is easier to manage because I move away from him and if he asks, I say, 'I'm just standing over here, because I don't want to be hit/headbutted'. I am thinking that I can now add something like: 'If you want to show mummy you love her, you can give her a kiss'. The equivalent in the playground/playdate with one other child would be something like removing him from the person he has done it to and then saying, if we want to touch X, we need to touch their hand gently and say 'hi'. (This might avoid him reaching out to touch/grab their face or push them over instead). Or I could encourage the jumping again. I have tried telling him to come to me if he feels excited or to call me (not that I am ever more than 30 cm away), but I think he's not at the point of understanding the definition of that feeling. I could always suggest if he wants to 'touch' anyone, he just comes over and hugs me (not sure if that rings true, but it's an idea).
Anyway, this is all a work in progress. I am just finding it helpful right now to remember the early advice which did actually work. The last thing I want to happen is for him to internalise shame that he is somehow wrong and I feel that despite the clinical psych's evident qualifications, her advice is a little off because it is clearly not working and a lot of heat is being added to the situation every time it happens. I should also add that we are not going to playgrounds or having playdates anything like as frequently as before and I or my husband have been doing age appropriate activities with just him and me. I got the Penelope Leach book after it was recommended on here at some point in the past.
Thanks again very much for your advice and to anyone else who has experience of this overwhelm stimulated hitting out, it would be great if you could share ideas.

@Aswegoalong I only just saw this, so time has moved on! I am slightly confused by your post. Are you saying he headbutted you due to overwhelm? He was pushing them throughout and successfully pushed the younger one over a couple of times, making him cry. The older one braved it out with him, even trying to hug him a few times which he seemed to enjoy but then he went in for a hug and pushed her right in the face which really shocked her are you saying this is due to overwhelm? It is possible - it is a question of judgement at the time, if anger then tlc is needed and working out why, if overwhelm then social skills being taught is needed, and "jumping" instead sounds great to me.

Most children go through a phase of hitting - the methods of getting them to stop will work - and it is a question of judgement as to whether it is overload or overwhelm or more angry feelings and it is likely to be a mix.

Teaching him to jump instead of hug when he is overwhelmed sounds great - not contrary to ahaparenting or clin psych advice either - "jumping" is sort of teaching a social skill about how to deal with a social situation. But if he is angry and you say "jump instead" then clearly that won't work, do you agree?

At the beginning you said you thought he was angry. If he has moved on from mostly being anger into mostly reacting due to overwhelm this will be due to your efforts, and that is really great

I think re overwhelm doing things which calm his nervous system would be really good too - you could google that for 2 year olds - when he is 3 going for long romps in the forest will be good, I think 2 is too young for long walks but you'd need to check

The advice I gave upthread which was to try to work out what he was upset about (ie when he was upset and angry and you did think at that stage that he seemed angry?) and do lots of 1:1 activities and tlc while at the same time saying "we do not hit" - so the social rules learning is a different point and jumping not hitting is going to be a good social rule as I say. But are you saying that didn't work? Because at the time you said it did, i thought?

I am not sure what advice the clin psyc gave different to that as I am not sure you said other than they said try to get him out as much as possible?

I didn't know you distrusted the advice from the other consultant.
Shaming a child is making a child feel bad, making a child feel bad for what is normal developmental behaviour. The research based methods are not shaming in themselves - they build confidence in the child - the whole body of research is aimed at recommending things which take account of the child's stage of development and are against punishment so pretty much the opposite of shaming.

It was me who recommended Penelope Leach just because I remembered how great it was when my dc were young, all the activities - but NB the body of research she refers to is the same as ahaparenting, clin pscyh. The activities are aimed at bringing out the skills which are natural in the child of that age, and that brings about confidence and good feelings. He will also love the attention, and the combined effect is that I am pretty sure you will find things easier with other kids as a result.

If you want more advice from other people, it might be worth doing a new thread, talking about what is happening now? I don't have much time at the moment so I won't be contributing much!

So, bottom line from me is:

• you and your husband spending a lot of time doing Penelope Leach activities sounds absolutely fantastic, really, there is nothing better in my opinion!

• if you feel his behaviour has moved away from the fear and anger and more into the realm of overwhelm then that is fantastic too!

• look up "schema" too it is really interesting and will help when working out if the behaviours you see are "normal"

@Aswegoalong hi, this thread is quite old now but you could exactly be describing our two year old adopted son. I feel quite stuck with how to help him, other than avoiding places with other toddlers. If you have the time it would be good to hear how things are for you now, either on the thread or a dm. I hope things are settling down a bit