Funded childcare for 3 year old - 30 hours?

[cappy123]

Hi there

In the last 5 weeks we've had our two DCs placed with us, which is great if tiring. I'm very slowly getting admin together in terms of applying for childcare costs / family allowance / health etc.

DD is 4 in Jan and DS is 3 in June. DD used to be in nursery where they lived before (with foster carers) and she will be in school next year. Social services have asked me to take a year off, possibly more with adoption allowance (which we may be entitled too later). I have applied for 30 hours and tax free funding but acc to HMRC we're not eligible if I'm on adoption leave.

Our situation is typical. Am on adoption leave for a year till Oct 2019. DH working. My wages have started to decrease, will half in Feb, almost half again in March and be nothing by July.

I get that in the case of those people on mat leave, and that HMRC are attempting to align rights for adoptive and birth parents. I made the point though that children are adopted at any age, who all have existing needs appropriate to their age. After all nobody gives birth to a 4 year old.

Anyone successfully managed to gain 30 hours funding for their 3/4 year old whilst on adoption leave? Have had a long chat with HMRC (who have said I'd have to appeal).

My local authority may fund 15 hours for our 2 year old DS, though.

Thanks in advance

Watching with interest as we were told lots of different reasons as why we were not eligible...not legal guardians, earn too much, adoption leave etc. I asked to see eligibility criteria and was told they aren't allowed to share it. I was originally under impression all previously LAC are entitled to 30 hours. Happy to be wrong, but I just wanted to see the criteria for myself.

We are only putting ours in nursery for 2 days, but when 15 hours is stretched over 51 weeks, it only covers 11.8 hours. So per month nursery fees for 2 (2 days) even with them both getting 15 hours is still nearly 400. So 30 hours would really help us.

I didn't get 15 hours for my 2 year old through local authority though.

I think LAC and post-LAC children are eligible for the 15 hours at two, but the usual eligibility criteria apply for the additional 15 hours when they turn 3.
I’d love to be corrected!

Sorry, I did get 15 for my 2 year old.

Looked after children/ children who have been adopted are ALL entitled to the 2 yr old funding so worth applying for that. You should be able to do that online via your LA. Most nurseries will allow you to stretch it as well which may be helpful... so 11 hrs a week all yr rather than 15 term time only .

Parents who are on mat leave are still entitled to the new extended 30hrs funding so I would appeal if they have said no to you.

I have a lot of experience with the funding in a professional sense so feel free to message me if you'd like to know anything.

Hi, I have been informed that you don't need to apply as your LA should automatically issue you a code. If not contact your SW they should sort it out for you.

I was only eligible for the 15 hours untill I went back to work.

All lac and former lac get 15 hours at 2. The rules for the 30 hours follow an algorithm, have you been on the website and tried to apply? I thought you could get it on adoption/Mat leave if you'd have been entitled before. The 30 hours is done on minimum earnings, not minimum work hours. Every 3 year old gets 15 hours. (Assuming you're in England, yes?) So both kids should get at least 15 hours.

But you don't want them in childcare yet, do you? 5 weeks in is far too soon unless you think you'll disrupt without it?

I’m struggling to understand why you would want to put your newly placed child into nursery for 30 hours a week while you are on adoption leave .

Isn’t the whole point of adoption leave to allow your child to bond with you ? Don’t you think that placing them in nursery for the whole day will be very confusing for them ?

I doubt OP wants to put child in nursery for 30 hours a week, I know I certainly wouldn't. But mine are in for two days, approx 4 hours each day. They enjoy nursery and I feel it is important for their development and eldest will start school next year. Even though they only go for eight hours over 2 days, nursery charges us for 2 full days (20 hours). Both my children get 15 free hours per week for 38 weeks, but this is stretched over 51 weeks, meaning we pay for 9 hours per child each week, equating to £400 per month. So if I could get 30 hours for the eldest I would apply, even though he would still only go for 4 hours, 2 days per week. That money is better in my pocket after all.

If the nursery provides the 15 hours, there must be a way for you to access that without additional charge, that's the rules.

What's most important for younger adoptees is developing attachment with their primary carer, especially 5 weeks in.

I think the nursery can make their own rules, ours for example will only 'stretch' hours, and they do not do term-time only, others may be different. But I think they only get £4.85 per hour, per child, many nurseries are really struggling with the offer of 15/30 free hours. But if we wanted we could use up the whole ten hours a day, working people may have to do this, and closer to school we will extend the hours we send them (certainly not to 10 hours a day though), not for childcare, or to mitigate or damage attachment, but to develop their learning and to have socialisation/play with children their own age. I agree, bonding/attachment comes first, but I also need to think that come next September, our eldest will be in school full time, he needs to be prepared for that. I chose our nursery for very specific reasons, other nurseries may do things differently, but seeing our two with children of their own age (I know not the same/not the same expectations/not the same age etc.), made me realise how much they need that peer interaction. I would never send them for more hours than I do now, but they are really benefitting from the time they spend there, even if it is just for 8 hours a week, so worth the cost. NB: We also do lots of other activities throughout the week.

I just wanted to point out with my post, that even though someone is applying for 30 hours, does not mean that they intend on sending their children for 30hours. Mine attend for 8 hours a week, but we are still charged for 20 per week, per child.

So for example, with my nursery to benefit from our 'free hours' and not pay any extra, I would have to send them for one full 10 hour day per week (and I would still lose out on 1.8 hours) because 15 hours stretched over 51 weeks is 11.8). Of course I would never ever send them for 10 hours a day, that would be very, very wrong. I like them to make the most of their day, having a few hours play and lunch.

Legally, the nurseries cannot make their own rules. If they offer 15 hours, there has to be a way families can access those 15 hours free at point of use. They can make it 3 hours a day. But they cannot force families to pay top ups if they just want to access free provision. The fact some nurseries break the rules doesn't mean it's allowed.

Unless your child is compulsory school age, and actually, even if they are, they don't need to be in full time school. They do need time for attachment. Peers and friends are important, but attachment is primary, especially 5 weeks in to placement. Peers and friends can come later, 5 weeks in is too soon.

Re "no one gives birth to a 4 year old", true, but these early weeks are like the post natal period, exhausting and full of shit. But also key to bonding, and starting to build attachment. That's all you should be thinking about, unless you're on the floor thinking of disruption, in which case 30 hours childcare is not going to be an answer, but some respite may be.

Ah, ok, the 10 hour day is sneaky. I thought stretching was a choice, though, and couldn't be forced?

Nurseries do not even have to accept 'free hours' if I understand correctly. Many are certainly not accepting the 30 hours, they have closed the door, because they cannot afford £4.85 per child, per hour from the gov. There has been lots of media coverage, they can claim from the government what they want. If parents will pay full fees, they will take them first (ours has a waiting list). Ours will not accept 3 hours per day as they still need to provide the correct amount of staff. Really happy to be proved wrong though, as it will save me some cash.

As I said, I absolutely agree with you that attachment comes first. The 5 weeks thing, I'm not arguing about, I was just making a point that even though someone applies for 30 hours, does not mean that they intend to send their kids into nursery for 30 hours. A saving I could make would have been to book half days instead of full days, but my kids love lunch, and I am willing to pay more for them to experience it with their friends (silly I know). Anyway, not dissing attachment or bonding, not at all and yes I know they can start school later, just trying to point out that just because you've applied for 30 hours, doesn't mean you're dumping them in nursery for 30 hours, which is where this thread was going. And OP said she was just applying as her salary will drop over the next year, next intake for applications is January, so she isn't putting them in 30 hours childcare at 5 weeks.

I know @thomassmuggit sneaky it is! And I was shocked at the cost, but looking at it from their point of view...some parents will put their kids in for 10 hours a day, our are only awake for 12, so 10 hours would be really harsh!!!

Not all nurseries do, no, but those that do do have to offer a way of accessing free at point of use.

I get what you're saying, but even January is seriously early days if 5 weeks now, and while it's possible, as in your case, to need 30 funded hours to use 8 of them, your situation is unusual! I suspect OP wasn't asking about accessing 30 hours funding to use only 8 hours per week. That is a fairly unusual situation.

Ours are only 14 weeks into placement, and they are getting so much out of nursery, they always did though, even in foster care. But I am clearly biased. I chose our nursery because our two are so reliant upon each other (really close in age), (eldest more so) and our nursery offered them separate groups, so they get alone time with their peers, they have been in nursery two weeks, I may be seeing more positive things because I want to, because of my decision to send them, but I really think they have come on in terms of development. Speech, interaction, independent play, cooperativeness. I am on adoption leave and money is not a worry (thank goodness for my clever DH), the slightest worry and I would pull them straight out, attachment/bonding is very much my first concern. But I understand how much of a worry money can be, intros and first weeks can easily eat into budgets/savings really fast! What I didn't want was for OP to be unfairly judged.

And now I have shared that info, you may judge me, but they are coping with 8 hours over 2 days and thriving (in my eyes anyway), if they waver, I will pull it. Their wellness and happiness is my only concern. My eldest who was 'unable to join in' now talks about his best friends at nursery and the (mischievous) things they have got up to, so their relationship with me is paramount, but I won't disregard their need to make friends and learn.

I have also broken another cardinal rule of adoption (if you've got this far, you can really judge me now), we went away as a family for 3 sleeps in a cottage (because we are the out doorsy types, and that is what got us the match in the first place)...and I was worried, because of what every adopter has always said, but we did loads of prep work, and they bloody loved it. Keep asking for the next holiday. I will tell you in ten years whether we did right by our kids or not, but for now we did. If we feel ever feel like we are not doing the right thing, we will stop it in an instant.

Hi there. Thanks for replies. Every situation is different. Our two were never used to being home with each other full time, and the foster carers warned us that it has been a bit cabin fever between them since Sep. DD did additional activities that foster carer paid for too. So it's about getting the balance right between time with us and nursery time to also support their development, all as appropriate to them as individuals and siblings. We've visited a few nurseries now. I thought I'd enquire about the 30 hours initially but prepare to flex, depending on what in practice works for the children, plus not all the local nurseries have availability.

Oops sent too soon, was going to add that their social worker foster carer and family finder are all keen for the DD to go to nursery. I'm thinking between 15 and 30 hours may work for her and up to 15, possibly less for DS. In response to previous poster, yes applied online and on the advice of HMRC I entered status first as a parent then as a guardian but still ineligible for the extra 15 hours for DD. LA, when I was applying for DS 15 hours, have said they'll look into the extra 15 hours for DD - not sure how that works given it's an HMRC decision. I'm still unsure about the issuing of the codes for both children, some nurseries we've visited haven't mentioned a code, some say we have to get one from our social worker, who is none the wiser... Thanks excitedly, may message you privately

Please think about this again.

I agree that every situation is different but every single child needs to bond with their primary carer, which I assume is you. Their development is relatively unimportant compared to this.

A securely attached child can easily catch up on 6 -12 months of formal education, let alone nursery. A child with serious attachment problems will rarely do well in school or in life.

If you cannot cope with them together then send then to nursery at different times for a couple of half days a week so you can have one on one time. Or get your partner to change his working hours to offer you more support.

Sending them to nursery for 30 hours a few weeks after placement isn’t the answer.

There’s no need to have “ cabin fever “ - they can be out and about with you every day, to the supermarket or park, swimming, mum and toddler groups, toddler gym or going to the library. Even the dreaded soft play.

There are Many activities for pre school child that dont involved being apart from you.

This year of adoption leave is absolutely crucial for them to attach to you. If they don’t start to do this during this time then you will be storing up very serious problems for the rest of their lives. Attachment issues are not fun.

It doesn’t matter if the F.C. sent them to nursery for 30 hours a week. The F.C. wasn’t trying To build a lifetimes attachment with them, she was trying to manage their behaviour , develop a routine and catch up on on developmental delays so they were more likely to get adopted.

You are not their F.C., you are their mother.

X posted, I see you are thinking of 15 hours for one child and 30 for the other.

This is not a good idea and your social worker is wrong . Unless, as a PP said, this is a desperate measure to stop the placement disrupting.

Your children are 3 and 2 1/4 on paper. Emotionally they are much younger. They don’t need nursery, they need their mummy.

I’m sorry I know this isn’t what you want to hear.

I agree with everything Kristina says.

Just to stress one point she makes....foster carers vary enormously in quality, but even the very best are different from parents. As a parent, we have to consider the long-term needs of our children. For the majority foster carers who are looking after young children who will be adopted, The focus is on short-term needs - getting children into routine, managing behaviour, helping him to settle in a new environment etc. They are not thinking about long-term issues relating to attachment. The same is true with social workers. therefore, the fact that foster carers or social workers recommend putting children in nursery, or sending them to school within a few weeks or months of placement, is irrelevant. They won’t have to deal with the fallout of a child with attachment difficulties.

I am a teacher and I also agree with the point that children can catch up with school if they are behind. They can’t catch up with attachment in the same way. Attachment takes a long time to develop, it’s not something that develops in a few months as so many people seem to think.

Your children need to develop their relationship with you, not other children or a knowledge of phonics. I’m really worried that you been badly advised here. This isn’t your fault but there are lots of experienced voices here who understand, and are living with, the complex long-term needs of adopted children - please do think about this.

Have fostered many pre Adopted baby's and children in our 40 years of service., have never placed a child in nursery pre Adoption, more focus on development, separation and loss, trauma, family inclusion, self esteem, attachment's. Separations and loss is significant too all.,, the less disruption in the first few months is critical, so not worth the risk of further disruption's post adoption. WE do not have a crystal ball.