Permanent placement of 6yo with us

[GertyD]

Long story short, my DH's second cousin placed her then 4yo son in foster care in January 2013. She was abusive physically and mentally to him and he will never go back. Social Services are seeking a permanent placement, forever home is the phrase they use. We have been approached by other family members and asked if we will offer this.

We don't know him very well, although we don't consider that a barrier as such, he is local and would continue to attend his local school, 3 miles away.

He is a beautiful child and we could give him the love and stability he needs, and having not done this before, I am as certain as I can be that we are strong enough to deal with the arising issues.

We have a 2yo and 15yo DS already, and I have concerns about how any behaviour issues will impact the younger one.

We wouldn't do this if we didn't feel we could commit to it 100 per cent and don't want to mess the poor child about anymore than he has been.

Has anyone got any experience of introducing an older, child from an abusive background into their family?
I guess I just am looking for reassurance that this could work and tips and advice when dealing with the troubled bits.

Hi and thanks for the responses, I am going to make a list of the points you have raised and put these to SW on Thursday when schedule 4 assessment starts. I feel so blind, as does DH.

I have dealt with lots of SW's professionally, my career has involved me attending child protection conferences, but these days it is more around Safeguarding. I really thought I would know what I was doing . Coming from a personal angle is something else.

The SW says that if we don't take him, he will be placed on the general adoption register, but it is highly unlikely anyone will take him so he will - in her words - remain in permanent care. No one wants to adopt older boys, or so she says. So that is what I meant by us being his chance. I am really sorry. I know there are excellent long term foster carers out there.

She has not mentioned targets, and I am just assuming that the cost of care is a real issue and a driver for her. The local authority is a big city one that has undergone several real serious case reviews in recent years and has been found to have serious failings.

Just to say, yes, children become harder to place with every year of age, and boys I believe even more so than girls (but don't have any 'hard' data on this). However there ARE adoptions of 7, 8, even 9 year old boys. Yes there is a chance they wouldn't be able to find adopters for him, but if they are so negative about his prospects (despite their best efforts) then they must think that other things (apart from age and sex) contribute to how hard it would be to place him.

Apologies if this has already been asked, but do you know why the current foster carers are wanting to end the placement?

I am a retired social worker. I think this is a really tough call for you, and I think Hackneylass and 64 make good points as have others.

I'm a bit confused about the timeline. Was the child removed from birthmother when he was 4? If a child is not going to be able to be re-united with the birthfamily, then the LA have to formulate a care plan for the child's future. Do you know what the care plan was at that time. If not, it is something you could ask. Was he placed with his present foster carers at aged 4 (and on what basis - I imagine short term fostering) but again I think you should check. Has he been with the same foster carer for 3 years, or have there been changes of foster carers - another thing to check.

You need to know what is his legal status - the LA probably have a Care Order on him granted by the Court, but again you need to check.

My guess is that this child was placed on a short term basis (as all children are initially) and that the LA have been trying to find adopters for him for sometime, without success. Given that he is already getting help from CAMHS demonstrates that he has a lot of emotional and behavioural problems. All children of course in this situation will be affected to a greater or lesser extent, but for this child, it seems he is adversely affected, as 7 is quite young for a child to be referred to CAMHS in my experience. Also the fact that the current foster carer is calling time on the placement is another worry, and you need to find out what that is all about. It may be for all sorts of reasons of course and related to the family circumstances rather than the child, but you need to know.

To be honest you probably are this child's "last chance" because he is certainly not going to be matched with adopters, given his age and his difficulties. Sadly there is a real shortage of permanent foster carers for children of this age. SO I can see why the social worker is hoping that you will care for this child.

You said earlier on the LA want adoption, and then you mentioned Special Guardianship (I don't know what a schedule 4 assessment is) I have been retired since 2009. The thing is with either of these "routes to permanency" it means, as Hackneylass has pointed out that you are the ones literally left "holding the baby" without any support from Children's Services. LAs like adoptions and SGOs because they can close the case as the child is no longer "on the books" and it's over to you, lock, stock and barrel.

I don't think you should begin any assessment until you are fully aware of all the background details, and then you need to be clear on what basis the child should be placed with you, if you decide to go ahead. I know you are concerned about your 2 year old, and I think this is a real problem, because the 7 year old will be functioning emotionally much younger than his chronological age (as Hackneylass found out with hers) and he will have so many needs that he shouldn't have to compete with a much younger child. Good practice means that children who are experiencing emotional and behavioural problems should be the youngest child in the family.

I'm not clear if you know this child or have ever seen him, though I think you must have done as your DH says he feels "numb" (sorry if I have that wrong) but has changed his mind. I think that is a real worry to be honest. There is no doubt that this child is in dire need of permanence and stability but whether you think you can take this on needs very careful consideration.

You see you hold all the cards at the moment (though social workers won't le on...) because the only way that a child can be adopted or be subject to an SGO is if the applicants are prepared to make an application for either of these 2 Orders. The social workers might not explain that to you, well I'm pretty sure they won't because they want this child placed. I'm not suggesting that they don't want to act in the child's best interests but as someone else said it is you who will be left to deal with the difficulties that arise.

My advice is to get far more information - all documentation should be made available to you and I also think you should have the opportunity to talk to the current foster carers, and don't let the social worker try to prevent this happening. IF after careful consideration you do decide to go ahead, I think you should tell the LA that you are only prepared to go ahead on the basis of Kinship Foster Care (this means that the LA will still have Parental Responsibility for the child) and you should get the support you need, and you will be entitled to a fostering allowance for him as this is mandatory with foster care, but is discretional with adoption and SGOs. I don't know what your financial situation is, but it's an important point. The social workers won't like this because the child will still be an open case, but I think it is the "safest" route for you, and they won't turn you down, because they have no other placement for him. Fostering Regulations allow them to place the child with you after doing an initial assessment, for a period of 6 weeks before carrying out a more comprehensive assessment and getting you before the LA Fostering Panel for approval. However in reality it is often far longer than 6 weeks (can be 6 months, or longer....) before a full assessment is carried out on you.

I know the fact that I am saying there is unlikely to be another placement for him (other than another short term foster carer) is going to put pressure on you, but I think you need to know the reality. I would urge you to try not to let your heart over-rule your head. There is your DH's wish for another child, which won't happen if you take this little boy. Rolling the tape on............if this child causes a big disruption in your family (and I suspect he may well) is your DH going to resent him - and then what's going to happen. I'm sorry to be pessimistic but I have seen marriages break up and people suffer mental health problems in these situations, and birth children and fostered children suffer in the midst of it all.

Happy to help further if necessary

Please feel free to ignore this as I am no expert and just thinking out loud here.

We adopted a 2yo girl with some "issues". Already have birth children. I knew she would "rock the boat" but at times it has felt as though she is trying to sink it! It has been tough. I can't imagine what a 7yo would do.
It may be like a bomb going off in your family. May be things will turn out ok but you are risking a lot doing this.
I know you had been considering another baby so why not ask ss if you could be considered for the baby. Don't they want to keep her in the family? I imagine this would work out better for your family.

KMarie - I wondered too about asking about the baby. Gerty - you could always explore contact with the 7 year old, if you took the baby (I know nothing about sibling contact so may have put my size 8 foot in it). I also wonder if SS aren't suggesting you as a possible carer for the baby because they know you won't cope with both the 7 year old and the baby. I am slightly surprised they aren't raising it with you because, generally, better for siblings to be raised together.

But there are some adoptions of older children which work out - as some people on this board can attest to. It is just a lot of hard work.

Do you work? Will you have to return to work? Do you have a good support network? I would think that you would probably have to take at least 12 months off - maybe a lot longer. Could you afford to?

So hard. So hard. What a tough, difficult decision. If only you could look into a crystal ball.

I think Nananina makes some very relevant points. Especially about the pressure on your marriage etc. If your marriage were to break up where would that leave your existing two children as well as this new child!

I have no idea if this is this child's last or best hope. I do know of people who have been in the process to adopt children aged 6 and 7 (two couples, two separate children) - the younger a boy.

I am confused about his age. You said "4yo son in foster care in January 2013" but now people are refering to him as a 7 year old? Don't worry I am not asking you to say I am just curious. I am also curious why he has been in care so long, this is almost 18 months. Maybe they have looked for a long time for an adoptive family for him, or maybe he was not released for adoption sooner (sorry can't remember the technical word for this). Maybe you have already said. Anyway, just to be clear I am not asking you for these details but would suggest you know all you can about this case and how it may affect your family. Who else can you talk to, have you met him, and can you meet or observe him. Can you build a relationship with him to some degree and perhaps continue that relationship even if he is adopted elsewhere or is moved to other foster care.

Our new son is much younger and is quite a handful. He has put a stress on our birth family (DD of 9) and it has been tense. But this is something I have wanted and explored for 7 years (yes, a lot longer than some but even those who move faster than us normally think about it for quite a while!). I was prepared to take the rough with the smooth as this was something I had wanted to do since my 20s and we wanted another child and could not have one any other way. I am totally happy with my decision to adopt but some days I have felt quite sad that it is harder than I had imagined and I have felt under-prepared even though I have had quite a bit of preparation.

You do not mention your teenager much and whether you have spoken to them or not specifically about what they feel.

Lots of people are advising you and I think you need to just take it all on board, talk to your dh and weigh it all up.

Bless you, it must be very hard.

I think the LA will not be asking the family to take the new baby because they will have no end of adopters already approved and awaiting a baby. That's the cynical part of me but I don't think it would be a good idea in any event, as this emotionally damaged 7 year old would have to compete with 2 younger children, when he needs to be the youngest. Also I wonder how the family would cope with the conflicting needs of a newborn, a 2 year old, a 7 year old with difficulties and a teenager.

IGH hello and see you have your little son. I think it's early days for you isn't it and there always needs to be periods of adjustments and some take longer than others, but I think you will find things easier as time goes by. I don't think we can ever really be "prepared" for something like adoption or childbirth or many other things in life for that matter, as the reality is always going to be different from what we expect.

I am just popping in to say I am reading responses but have lots on this week end so will respond properly as soon as I can.

The confusion about the age is my fault. When I first posted I thought he was 6 years old and had been in care over a year, nearer 18 months, but I was wrong. He is actually 7 years old, and has been in care since May 2013.

There was another family who were assessed as suitable - other relatives of DH but they decided not to go ahead after the husband badly broke his leg and could no longer work. Then the boys father came forward and the process started again, and then he did a runner after his new girlfriend got pregnant. He was in prison for armed robbery prior to that, so probably for the best.

I got 5 minutes so will try and respond now. Firstly I should say I am unimpressed with the SW. She is heavily emotionally involved. She kept saying she wanted to take him home, he was her favourite, her special boy etc, she got tearful at points and promised us the world if we took him.
MyFeetAreCold I raised the out of birth order thing and she just looked blankly at me. Like she didn't understand what I was saying. Then she moved on to another subject. I should have brought her back in hindsight.
64x32x24 I was also worried that there are more issues than what she is saying, so I have asked for his full report and won't agree to anything until we have seen this.
Machakos His current foster carers have decided that they don't like city life anymore and are selling up and moving to the country apparently.
NanaNina I will ask about the care plan, and the intention when he was first placed. I do know his mother still has parental responsibility at the present though.
As said above I am getting the full psychologist report as I agree 7 is young to be with CAMHS.
My older DS is very for this. He wants to help, but a PP said, it is easy to say this. The reality is always something else.
We have seen the boy at family functions, over the years, and about 3 years ago DH babysat him whilst his mother sorted out her Dads funeral - it was after his death that the abuse started. So he is not a complete stranger but I can't say we know him.
He visited yesterday and we had a nice couple of hours with him and another relative who is allowed contact with him.
We will also look into the Kinship Care thing as that sounds much better.
KMarie100
The SW said the other baby will just go to another couple - they are not considering placing them together. That is horribly sad as he knows about the pregnancy.
DH and I work full time. This would need to continue - especially with another mouth to feed. I would get maternity leave though. My HR dept are looking into whether this can be done at placement stage rather than months later at adoption stage.
IGH I mentioned my older DS above, I worry he can't comprehend it really though so is positive because of that.

There is a lot of advice here but I am grateful for it as we are so blind.

I can't really respond about DH being possibly resentful, as of course he could be. History tells me it is unlikely but it is possible. As is the negative and potentially awful effect this could have on our family unit... This is so bloody hard.

When he visited yesterday, he came across as a regular, if shy, 7 year old. We went to a Wacky Warehouse type place for an hour- one of his school mates was there by coincidence and he was playing with him and my young DS in a fine and normal way. But that was just a snap shot and he doesn't have a clue that we are considering taking him in.

GertyD Thanks for the update. I guess I would say go slow! Things sound not too bad but who knows. I think you just need to feel you have had the full into, the full best advice from people who are not trying to make you do things. AND my goodness the social worker sounds dreadful. I think you need to get answers about how to handle this out of birth order thing.

NanaNina thanks, yes, ds is here. I just posted this n the newbie thread...

"We are excited, exhausted and generally nervous. Our new ds is here and has been for quite a few weeks now.

His behaviour has regressed since arrival (we are told it is normal). I love him, it is very clear and strong, but his behaviour can challenge. So it is a need to keep the loving and good stuff and fun times topped up to combat the stresses and bad times, for us all.

Today was a very good day. Friday was awful. But (whose who are Christians will know the phrase).... it's Friday but Sunday is coming!"

Thanks for asking.

I've been in your situation GertyD, and agonised over it for weeks. I also felt under pressure from SS although they did explain quite clearly how difficult it would be. Ultimately we decided we could not place our family under the strain, I feel constant guilt as child/ren in question are now in permanent care but it really is not just as simple as giving the children a nice home and lots of love . If only it was.

Too right MistyMeena - sad but true!

ITH yes it is absolutely normal for your LO to regress after a "honeymoon period" and I am so glad that you already feel that maternal love for him, which doesn't always come for weeks, even months. Typically adopters would tell us about their doubts and confusions and "ups and downs" (including OMG we've done the wrong thing) once everything had settled down, about a year after placement. I always used to say that we needed to include something about the adjustment period for families when a child is placed in prep groups, and we did start to do this, but to be honest I think a lot of prospective adopters don't really take this on board at the time.

You will I am sure know that it is good to allow (even encourage regression) at times, as there is almost always a gap between the child's emotional and chronological age. I remember some of your posts and know that you are very level headed and I think are very aware of the importance of the need to build secure attachments and that this is going to take time and effort...........not that you need me to tell you that! How about your DD - must be quit hard for her after being the only child for so long. Are you getting any post adoption support - hope so.

I absolutely agree with your advice to Gerty to go slow - that social worker should be in another job - totally inappropriate and unprofessional.

Gerty - I think you need to back track on this one as this sw sounds like a nightmare. She should not be pushing you along with this, in fact quite the reverse. I would always ensure the applicants were fully aware of the child's difficulties and the possibility of problems ahead, as this does test out people's motivation. You mentioned something about her starting an assessment - I would put a stop on that until you have more details and information. You need to be able to understand the different "routes to permanency" as it is quite complex and the sw won't be giving you proper information.

You will need to know the child's legal status - it is quite possible that he is "Looked After" (this is what being in care means) and there is no Order on him because his mother requested his removal and I think you said she "put him into care" - legally this means that she can have him back at anytime, but if she did this the LA to apply to the court for an Emergency Protection Order to prevent her doing this. It seems unlikely that she will do this though.

Thanks Nannina yes, we know regression is good (but it is hard) and yes we all have support. DD is struggling but getting better. I have updated on the newbies2 thread so won't say more here but thanks for asking. Mumsnet has been a life saver for me.

GertyD good luck, keep us posted.

Personally, I do think you should ask the social worker about the out of age order thing (I suggest you ask her in writing and ask her to come prepared to answer or an email to answer what problems this may lead to and how to combat the problems etc).

What do you think, Nannina? About the out of birth age order thing? Is is a good idea to make the social worker find out the answers? Because I have always heard out of birth order is a very difficult thing.

Just out of finterest if social worker is so keen on him why isn't she applyingto adopt him??

Have just noticed Gerty that you both will need to continue to work full time, though you might be able to get adoption leave. Presumably your 2 year old is in full time day care. What arrangements would you make for taking/collecting the 7 year old from school, and the 13 weeks a year school holidays! I know there are after school clubs and day care is available for school children in the holidays but I don't think this would be a good idea for a 7 year old who already has a lot of problems, and really needs to be in a stable environment, especially given the move from the foster carers.

Also there is the issue of finance and the very high cost of day care. I think given your circumstances that you definitely should only be prepared to go ahead on the basis of kinship foster care, mainly because fostering allowances are mandatory, whereas Adoption allowances and SGO allowances are discretionary. Also I think if you do go ahead you will need support from the LA.

IGH - I'm assuming you mean placing a 7 year old with a birthchild of 2 years......given that the fostered/adopted child needs to be the youngest in the family. The sw sounds unprofessional and incompetent and so I don't think she will be able to come up with any response about how this may not be the right thing for the 7 year old, given that he will have to compete with a much younger child. Having said that, policies can get altered when it suits (as in this case) and will probably be rationalised as being ok as it's a kinship placement, but of course it isn't ok at all, but I hate to say it, the likely alternative for this little boy is that he will be moved between short term foster homes, unless one of them wants to keep him on a permanent basis. This does sometimes happen and of course these placements have good outcomes for obvious reasons as the family are not stepping into the unknown.

I can see why the sw is desperate to place him with his relatives but to talk about him the way she has is ridiculous and frankly I wouldn't have any faith in this social worker at all, she seems to lack professional wisdom, to put it mildly!

I agree that sibs should be brought up together wherever possible and this is a half sib, but I really don't think placing the newborn with the family would be the right thing at all, given the differing needs of the children in the family.

We have always worked full time, since my eldest was 3 years old, so childcare is something we have always had to think about. DH works shifts - either early or late so DS1 requires half day minding, one week the morning and one week the afternoon with usually DH there for one of those days. My DM does this for us and she has offered to have this little boy as well so am not too worried. I have flexible working so can do school drop off. Holidays will need planning but we can do that as we always have had to. I did put this to the SW and again, she had little to say on it. May ask to speak to her manager instead if there in no improvement on Thursday.

I get full maternity leave also, as does DH. His employers give him 3 months full pay and 3 months 90 per cent pay. We are very very lucky that way.

Odd that DH employers will give more leave to adopting fathers than natural fathers but apparently it comes under one of their special family circumstances policies. Can't say I ever heard of that or known it elsewhere.

So we waited in yesterday afternoon and the SW didn't show up.

I called her office who said she was sick but they had no record of her appointment with me, spoke to her manager, who was unaware that we even existed and was very surprised as this is considered an urgent case. The relative who has done much of the liaison then spoke to the foster carer and the same thing had happened the day before to her as there was a progress meeting at the school and SW didn't show up, due to sickness, but had not notified her colleagues or boss or put it in her diary.

The head of services is now involved. We are awaiting a call from him.

How frustrating.

Hmm sounds like the social worker might be suffering from some stress related illness, but it is very worrying that her manager didn't know you existed. There is something very funny going on - hope you can get some clarity from the head of service.

gerty - apologies for my nosiness but I was just wondering how everything went and whether you did continue to pursue the placement.

All the best.