Kewcumber and Hester need a vehicle to whine

[Kewcumber]

I had lunch with some friends from the PTA yesterday. A very lovely woman (who would probably be mortified to know I was wound up by her comment) was breast-feeding her newborn. Another of the PTA who is herself adopted said "never mind, my mum never got to breast feed either" which startled me a bit as I hadn't actually been thinking anything along those lines. So I shrugged and said, "oh it really doesn't matter to me these days, its not something I think of much anymore". Lovely breast feeding lady said "Weren't you lucky not to suffer the pain of pregnancy/breast feeding" (I cant' remember the exact phrase).

I think she caught me at a bad time because normally I would probably just think - oh she's having a hard time breast feeding and sleepless nights and smile nicely saying "yes aren't I lucky". But instead I smiled nicely and said "yes, on the other hand my child has a year of his life missing which I can't fill for him which is painful to me"

Now I feel like a bitch because I'm sure she was just doing what we discussed on the thread - just trying to look on the positive side.

It always rubs me up the wrong way when people imply adopting is easier than giving birth. Is there a way of desensitizing myself to it because I don't think the general public are going to change any time soon!?

You didn't, did you?

We?ve not yet been matched but have been amazed at some comments already!! Some of our friends and family have obviously been looking into it and really seem to understand the process. But other quite close family members just haven?t bothered at all and have been full of ?oh you?re so lucky you don?t have to stop drinking? (even though we did for nearly a year for treatment anyway!) and one of my favourites ? pick one that?s already gone through teething so you don?t have the sleepless nights.

When they do the ?you?re lucky? comments I like to tell them that they should look into adoption rather than have a birth child next time and I can give them our SW details to discuss it?.at which point they go quiet!

Another great one (same couple) was to ?get one a similar age to their child so they could be friends???.the fact that we?re family so they?d be cousins didn?t even enter their mind!

Kewcumber I think you responded really well and don?t sound bitchy at all. The more open people are the more people will start to understand?.one day!

I just find it amazing that people don?t ask more questions and just assume they understand!

Devora at the 'PC doll' and the 'why do you want to make your child different'? Even if this runs through people's heads I can't believe they are so rude as to say it!

Maybe this is one for the 'You know, I know you don't mean it that way but that sounded really rude / dismissive / insensitive' Some of them may consider that even more special pleading, I guess...

"Can you meet the child before you decide whether to have her or not?"

"Do you get to go to the Home and pick out a child?" (I told her - You've been watching far too many TV programs)!

"But why do you want an older child, when you could have a little baby" (said in a despairing tone, as if talking to an obstinate child who wants a forbidden toy)

Was told I shouldn't have children because I'm a single gay woman

And

"What did she do to get herself taken into care?"

Which took the cake really

'Has she lived in a house before?'

On being told her name: 'surely, you will change that'; that shows her class background', and 'I'm sure you can think of a nickname'.

My pet hate is being told we are 'brave to take her on' as though she is a wild animal.

Oh yes, 'brave', I hate that as well

I personally think my older two are the brave ones, for trying to live in a family again after it had all gone wrong in the past. Especially DD1 since she had a disrupted adoption

But me? No. They aren't wild animals, as you said. Just kids

I can't believe you got 35 posts into a whinge thread befroe I noticed

We are fortunate that our adoptions are private, in the sense that our children don't LOOK obviously adopted. So apart from the people they have chosen to tell, no one knows. So we don't usually have to deal with ignorant strangers

For those who do know, we have made it clear that the children background is a no go topic and if it's ever raised we shut down the conversation immediately. And you know what a stroppy /scary witch I am

I'm an interloper a non adopter who lurks on the adoption threads as I find you a wise and witty crowd who have thought faaaaar more deeply about your parenthood and parenting than most of us. I have learnt loads from reading your experiences including how gobsmackingly crass some people can be.
I work in a field where we deal with the families of disabled children. One colleague had been working long term with a family of an adopted child (teen now) who had attachment disorder and his problems were causing severe emotional repercussions in the family. She discussed this asking for advice in a staff meeting. Colleague 2 asked "well, why do they keep him? I mean, he's not genetically theirs" This from a professional, educated parent working in the field of disabilities.

So, I do know it happens. But could I agree with those of you who have said that sometimes some of you are somewhat over-sensitive?

Discussing adoption can be a minefield of faux pas waiting to catch you out.

E.g.
Don't say 'Your child is lucky to have come to you' Yep. geddit. Adopted children are not lucky to have been through what they've been through. But I often tell friends who are new parents that their baby is lucky to have them as parents because I love those people and want to express how great they will be as parents. Kids who come to lovely parents are lucky to have those parents however they got there.

'Don't ask about the adoption details - you wouldn't ask about a conception or birth. ' But actually with friends and even with strangers at the busstop women often talk about how long it took to conceive and the intricacies of birth. We like talking about that stuff. It's the stuff of life and while much of it remains private we can still talk about the bits we're happy to share without taking offence.

'Don't say anybody is lucky not to have gone through morning sickness/ labour/ teething etc'. Of course idiotic to say any of this but surely usually well- meant. Like telling my friend who couldn't breastfeed 'well at least your dp can get up and do the night feeds' because sometimes it's bloody difficult to find the right positive comment.

'Don't say 'Oh all children do that' because parenting adopted children is different.' Well, yes it often is and sometimes it isn't. Get more than 1 mum in a room and there will be a coversation comparing notes on how to deal with their dcs behaviour. Any mother who has a dc over 6 months older than yours will believe she knows more about parenting than you. It's a fact of life. Come on, admit it, yopu do it too, don't you?

at slapbang gatecrashing our pity party to tell us what a load of old moaners we are

She ain't wrong, but I'm not going to let her stop me...

Yes of course you're right, slapbang - no doubt I am over-sensitive at the moment. We are going through a few adoption and racist issues at the moment so my sensitivity is somewhat heightened.

And nine times out of ten I do smile nicely and don't take offence when people ask what I (or he) know about DS's "real" mother, or tell him how lucky he is, or when I try to explain why it really isn't as simple as giving DS to someone else in the playground to see him into school when I'm in a hurry. But I reserve the right every tenth time to feel sensitive about it.

I have taken a lot in my stride and not reacted in anyway and the dull guidelines we try to educate people about aren't to spare us the difficult conversations but to spare either our children from more pain or spare the individual from a potentially massively awkward discussion which the average person in the street couldn't deal with. My friends little girl when asked why her "real mum" gave her up will quite happily share all the details of sexual abuse from various people and the physical abuse as well.

And yes of course there are behaviours which all children display from time to time but tbh if a child without a history of neglect of abandonment consistently over a long period displayed some of the behaviours I have experienced (not all DS but other friends) then I would seriously suggest that they should consult a child psychologist. DS does display some behaviours which are very obviously (to me) caused by his background and are easy for the trained eye to tell apart from similar "normal" behaviours, he also has very many traits which are perfectly normal child behaviour for his age/development and a few which I have no idea what causes them. My issue is that it is rare, vanishingly rare, to be allowed the opinion that any part of my childs behaviour is caused by his early life, his loss and abandonment issues.

Just occasionally about once a year (or possibly even less) I might whine to MN adopters about it, the rest of the time I suck it up and get on with life.

Slam bang -re " don't ask about the adption details"

Actually its not the same as asking about the birth. My conception and birth stories -contractions, -pain relief , number of stitches etc is MY information to share as and when I see fit. Most people who ask about our children's backgrounds are not asking for the adults story, they are asking for information about THE CHILDS background . That's totally different and it woudl be a complete breach of confidentiality to disclose this. Much the same as if your midwife went around telling your neighbours how many stitches you had in your perineum.

I am usually happy to talk about my experiencee of adoption eg how long did you wait, what was the assessment like etc. It's very very rare IME to be asked about those things, except by prospective or other adopters. Most other people just want a bit of juicy gossip. so sorry, my child's tragic past is not available for your titillation

I believe that among some biological parents there is a real feeling of superiority. Hence the frequent suggestions that we are fake parents, as in the question " what happened to his real parents?"

So when we have an opinion about our child eg he's finding it hard at school dues to his attachment issues, they feel they need to correct us and put us in our place by contradicting or minimising. because of course we can't know anything as we are not as real or proper as them. I think this is true for other women who are not seen as " proper" mothers eg mothers who do not live with their children, lesbian mothers .

That's why they need to imply that adoption is the " easy option " for those who are not tough enough to endure pregnancy and childbirth. or who count cope with breast-feeding or sleepless nights. < snort>

I think difference makes people nervous. And I think that women can be quite chauvinist about their maternal expertise and maternal identity (I count myself in this). We all love to patronise new mothers or less experienced mothers, don't we? It's one of the perks, this status of being all wise and 'just you wait ho ho ho'. And they do not like it if you've done a kind of specialist parenting that is outside their expertise.

For example, I've had run-ins a number of times about sleep training i.e. that I wouldn't do controlled crying with my newly adopted toddler. Oh, the grief I've had about that - the protestations about how well it worked with their children, that I mustn't let her get the upper hand, that I'll make a rod for my own back etc. When I explain that this isn't an appropriate technique for a newly adopted child, I got more 'absolute nonsense, don't believe those idiot social workers'. When I say, 'well, I've mothered a birth child and an adopted child, and I can tell you that there are important areas of difference', I often get an aggrieved recitation of various ways in which THEIR children are special too.

It's an odd one. Mostly I just think, "They're not really having a conversation with me; they're talking to themselves about themselves". But it still hurts, because I think there are repercussions that affect our children.

Yes it does hurt and it does affect our children. And that won't go away if we all just toughen up or decide to become " less touchy".

Because it's about making a narrow definition of mothering and parenting that includes them and excludes others . The route in is via " natural " conception and birth ( ha ha) so we fail by definition. If we then deviate from the norm in other respects eg single parent by choice, LGBT, disabled family, mixed heritage etc, we are less and less a proper family.

Then to cap it all we have the damn cheek to converse with other women and pass ourselves off as real mothers when we don't know what we are talking about.we talk about issues they have no understanding of, such as loss, abandonment, neglect, attachment etc. And then we OBJECT to bigotry , vulgar curiosity and prejudice -well no wonder our kids are so mixed up with parenst like us

So good of you, slam bang, to pop in and patronise us " wise and witty crowd" and then put us in our place about How we are being over sensitive and really adoptive parenting isn't any different. hearing from a proper /real parent just puts in all into perspective

Must pop off now and lecture these black families about how if they just chilled out and relaxed more there wouldn't be any more racism.

I also lurk on these adoption threads and just wanted to add my experience as the parent of a child with 'hidden' special needs. I.e. ones that are not physically obvious. I also get a lot of 'oh my child does that ALL the time' to which I want to respond. Oh so you are also seeing a paediatrician, asking for a cahms referral, pulling your hair out etc, etc! It's negative competitive parenting at its worse and if you combine it with smug parents who tell you how to fix it all it's awful!

Ds's pre-school informed me today that if he hadn't been leaving to go to school they would shortly have fixed him!

I am not comparing my ds to yours, and I fon't know if it helps to hear or not but this complete dismissal of you and your children's experience happens in lots of situations!

Yy B&B,we have two children with hidden special needs and one whose needs were VERY visible. We get judged over the first two and looks of sympathy and comments about how brave we are with the latter

Your child's nursery sounds wonderful

Oh god Kristina, I don't want to piss you off. Sorry if I sounded patroninsing. It really wasn't my intention (or hopefully my actual thoughts iyswim).

I guess I just wanted to add to the conversation with the moaners to put in a comment from a moanee as t'wer to give the view from the other side of the fence. I wholly accept that I have no concept of what it's like to walk in your shoes and I wouldn't dream of lecturing you. Honestly. Sorry.

Thank you for your fulsome apology. I appreciate that you didnt mean to offend. I'm aware that I am very defensive of our safe little space to offload to others who understand and I'm sorry if I misunderstood

We do think of this place as a safe place to talk openly about our children. I must admit I forget how many people may be lurking on these threads.