Just getting started

[dizzysteph]

My hubby and I are really just starting out in the adoption process. We have got past the initial assessment and are waiting to get a letter giving us dates for the training in the new year. We are alternately excited and a bit scared but sure that this is the right thing for us to do. We already have one daughter who is 4.

My husband is Chinese (Malaysian/Singapore)and Im white and we would obviously like to adopt a child with the same or a close racial mix to our daughter. I wondered if anyone has any experience of adopting mixed race Chinese children in this country. The sw who did our assessment (whilst very helpful) didnt know how often children with this racial mix get put up for adoption.

Any advice, thoughts, gratefully received! [hgrin]

Nina ? I have problems with you for the following reasons;

You are illogical and have a great deal of difficulty grasping points

My point was quite simple and everyone else on the thread seems to grasp it (even if they don?t agree) ie it is nonsense to say that you not approve of overseas adoptions (but you do approve of domestic adoption) because of factors that pertain to both types of adoption.

That is the context in which I referred to forced adoptions. Your argument that you repeat, viz

?I would really like to know how people who think as you do feel about the cases where children have been fatally injured by their parents, or starved, sexually abused etc etc - do you think then that the child should have been removed before this tragedy and if you do, how that fits with your beliefs about "forced adoptions"

is a straw man argument ? a misrepresentation of my position (as Kewcumber pointed out to you.). You are attempting to create the illusion of having refuted my position by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted my original position.

To make it clear

You say, ? I?m against overseas adoption because I have read that some of them might be forced?
I say ? But there is a very high rate of forced adoptions in England?

You say ? Oh so you are against all forced adoption, even when I child is seriously neglected or abused? ?

Here is another example

By Nina to Kewcumber - ?I therefore find the final para on your post as both inaccurate and patronising. Interestingly Kristina has commented on another thread today to say that "overseas adoption is hard and expensive"

Ahem, no I didn?t. I said it some time ago. And your point is obviously that Kewcumber is claiming that overseas adoption is free and easy? Except she?s not. Another straw man bites the dust.

Well I don't intend to "debate" attachment issues with you any further because it is pointless. BUT I will have to say that of course I agree all children who are adopted are insecurely attached, by definition. They wouldn't have been removed from their parents if they were securely attached. All children with an attachment disorder will be insecurely attached because of their pre placement experiences. However, as I tried to explain before, it depends on how the child was able to survive with abusing parents with whom he was insecurely attached. Children can organise themselves in how to survive with abusing/neglectful parents. It is quite amazing I know to think of children being able to do this, but it is seen in young babies who are ill treated by their parents, and who lie perectly still and quiet in their pram so as not to attract ther attention of the abusing parent. It is called "frozen awareness" or "frozen watchfulness" and I have actually seen this in a 3 month baby and it is very chilling indeed to observe this phenomena.

The other important factor is if the insecure attachment can be understood and recognised by the adoptor or caregiver, and they know that "love is not enough" and have the patience and understanding to know that they have to change the child's internal world (i.e. that adults are not to be trusted to care for children) and that such a child will be almost always functioning at at an emotional level much younger than their chronological age, then there is every chance that the child will in fact come to learn that he can trust adults and this will be a protective factor for him throughout his life span. I am assuming that this is what has happened with your child.

However, if the child's pre placement experiences have left him unable to organise (obviously not at a conscious level) any way of surviving, he can be said to have an attachment disorder and the task of re-parenting such a child is enormous and dependent upon the age of the child, will affect him through his lifespan. I agree with what you say about some of these children being described as "brain damaged" and all the comments you make in that para I am in agreement with and indeed are what I am trying to explain!

You mention your friend's child who has been diagnosed with a severe attachment disorder (I am assuming he is adopted) and honestly there is no difference whatsoever between Reactive Attachment Disorder or Attachment Disorder. It's like saying there is a difference between a cold and symptoms of runny nose, headache, sore throat etc. He can't possibly have a "non-existent" - he will have an insecure attachemnt but has been so damaged that he will fall into the category that I tried to explain above, i.e. as having an attachment disorder and may never be capable of learning to trust adults again and enjoy a secure attachment pattern and all the benefits that that brings throughout the lifespan.

I note that you can't resist trying to discredit me though by saying that you are surprised at a professional not understanding the difference. I think it is you who is confused.

I didn't think you would understand me saying that your comments to me about Kristina's posts said more about you than me. I think it was an attempt by you to make it look as though I lacked the insight/understanding of her posts, and when people do this (as you have done again in this post) I think it is point scoring. I do it myself sometimes! I still think her analogies were very confusing for what it's worth.

Oh well I expect you will think I am "lecturing" you again and yes I try to avoid your posts too. I note that you make no comment about the false allegation you made about me that I was "dragging up issues of forced adoption" when no-one on the thread had mentioned it, except that Kristina had in a previous post.

I know I can come across as too direct but I am always willing to admit or apologise when I am in the wrong.

Y ou take everything personally

You seem to have trouble understanding that many posters are not OFFENDED by your views and do not want your apologies, although they are usually graciously accepted. . They disagree with you ? THEY THINK YOU ARE WRONG and they do not want these facts / opinions to stand uncorrected or unopposed, especially when these threads are read by many prospective adopters.

They are not ? having a pop at you? ( as you said so rudely to hifi) or ? bearing grudges? or attempting to ? show you up?. You constantly want to make this personal and its not.

You become angry or illogical when asked to evidence your opinions

When Kewcumber commented that you were confusing RAD and insecure attachment, your response was not to quote or reference any of the accepted authorities on this subject but to claim that you must be right because you run courses for prospective adopters!

You are inaccurate and misrepresent peoples opinions

You wrote : ? If you look at Kristina's post on this thread of 28th Oct you will see that she states: "England has a SHOCKING record of forcing parents to give up their children - far higher than any other country."

In fact I wrote, ? England has a SHOCKING record of forcing birth parents to give up their children, far higher than in many similar countries.?

That?s quite different. You then said I couldn?t evidence it. Then I did. Then you said that international comparators were not relevant

You are patronising

?Anyway you and I are never going to see eye to eye and therefore I will attempt wherever possible to try to enter into any debate with you, which will probably be better for both of us.?

I don?t think it?s your place to decide what best for me Nina

You are arrogant and make sweeping assumptions. You seem to have no grasp of the limitation of your knowledge

You wrote: ?It does really puzzle me how it is that people who have nothing to do with these complex matters and have never met a parent who abuses/neglects their child, or even seen such a child, and have maybe never been inside a court, can hold such views about "forced adoption" ?

Your arrogance astounds me Nina! You don?t have the faintest idea what experience I have, either personal or professional. FYI I have over 40 years experience in adoption and have worked as an academic, in the NHS, in a child protection agency and in voluntary agencies. I now own a company that provides expert witnesses to courts in jurisdictions around the world.

Unlike you, I do not feel the need to preface my every post with this information, as I wish my advice / opinions to be judged on their own merits. I am not giving advice in a professional capacity here. I do not wish to set myself up as an expert here ? I am just another mumsnetter.

You also assume that yours is the only type of knowledge or experience that counts. You would do well to give place to the many posters on these threads who have parenting abused and traumatised children ? something you have never done and clearly do not understand AT ALL.

SO Kristina - apart from all that you have no issues with me................!

I would calm down where I you - all these posts with bold letters demonstrate how angry you are........I worry that your blood pressure may get raised as a result.

We are but lines of text on a computer screen, and your opinion/insults against me matter not one jot to me.

I could go away and crawl under a stone but I think not as I am fortunate enough to be secure in myself both personally and professionally.

listen,we come on here for support,not the rantings of a bored ex social worker.if you have advice offer all well and good.if not keep quiet as you just agrivate people.

no nina, the bold is to make it easier to read such a long post. its nothing to do with anger - why woudl you think that?

And no, nina, i dont want you to go away. i want you to keep posting.

Although I have NO desire whatsoever to debate with you at all and you have upset many other posters, I think that on balance it?s a good thing that you post here on mumsnet.

That way, prospective adopters can get an idea of what they will have to deal with when they interact with social services, for perhaps a decade of their lives. Sadly you are a very typical example of some of the lower ranking social work staff I have come across in my career. They are frequently

· Not very bright
· Illogical
· Argue on the basis of anecdote
· Fail to evidence their opinions
· Racist, or at best extremely informed about relevant concepts / issues
· Take any disagreement personally ? the most damning indictment as Sw can make is not that someone is a bad parent ? its that they do agree with / get along with/ have make a complaint about SW
· Decide on their opinion then look for information support this
· Ignore any facts that do not fit
· Refuse to countenance that they might occasionally be wrong
· Fail to understand the difference between a fact witness and an expert witness

So please keep posting Nina ? you are an online example of your profession.

The tragedy is that although you are now retired, there are many others like you out there who hold the futures of precious children and their families in their hands

HIFI - I think I have the right to decide for myself when and where I will post. I
incidentally you spell aggravate like this!

Kristina - ok whatever .............you are very entitled to your opinion but you are wasting your time and energy in trying again and again to insult me, because I am unaffected. You say I have upset many other posters: you must mean Kewcumber and Hifi - wow 3 people including you - I shall not sleep tonight worrying about all these people I have upset. And as I said to Hifi, I think I have the right to decide when and where I post.

I will just end by saying that I was not a lower ranking social worker but a team manager, and ended my career as childrens services manager. BUT you believe whatever you wish if it makes you feel happy.

Blimey.

Can we all shake hands now?

"They wouldn't have been removed from their parents if they were securely attached", not all children are "removed" from their parents for adoption, not all children who were removed are insecurely attached, insecure attachment can be a result of having a primary carer that the child doesn't yet know and has not yet bonded with - no previous abuse or neglect necessary.

Luckily the internet doesn't allow for shaking of hands but thankfully it is possible to just disagree with people without having to pretend that you do.

NN - do you really want to start us all picking up on typos, spelling, grammatical errors I generally give the benefit of the doubt and assume its a typo and generally I don't much care provided I understand the gist of the post. However I can point out many errors in the last few posts if you think thats a helpful way to go, no reason to single Hifi out.

Just to make it clear: I tend to look at topic titles and click on those that seem interesting to me. What understanding I have of what social services do comes from reading some topics here, plus some memories of 30+ years ago when I was a first-time mum (some pleasant, some stress-making). So I can't quote facts or produce evidence.

NanaNina ? I think there's something you've either never understood or don't want to address. From what I can recall from postings you've made that I've read, you don't seem to be able to respond in a supportive way to people who relate their experiences of social services with respect to their children when those experiences have been frightening or stressful. You often say that when cases come before the court it is the judge who is the person who makes the decision rather than social workers, but I've often read people's descriptions of the procedures and I at least can understand how powerless they can feel. It often seems that everybody is experienced in producing court reports, know how to speak in court, can be objective ? except the parents for whom their situation may be the first they've ever had to deal with the processes involved . Some of the accounts I've read here seem almost Kafka-esque. Of course, they could all be people failing to accept their poor parenting, or refusing to follow social services' advice. But I think there have been too many cases here indicating that sometimes social workers do get it wrong ? and I wonder how you can continue to talk about your decades of experience yet you don't seem to want to acknowledge that. Until you can do that you're likely to continue to get people who challenge you whenever you post here with your assurances that social workers and the courts don't make mistakes. It isn't personal in the sense that it is you as person who is being challenged, it is your views that are being challenged.

There's a article in the Independent about adoptions. The article itself is informative to read, but perhaps more importantly for you it should be some of the comments that you should focus on.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/adoption-system-fails-the-most-vulnerable-2121210.html

Kewcumber - I'm sorry but I really don't understand the first para in your last post. You say "insecure attchmt can be the result of having a primary carer that the child doesn't yet know and has not bonded with - no previous abuse or neglect necessary" - but the child needs a parent to be attuned to his needs and meet those needs from the moment of birth, or even in utero as there is a lot of evidence now that the unborn child can be adversely affected by such things as domestic violence or tension in the mother. It is in those early days and weeks that the pattern of attachment is formed, be it secure in the sense that the baby's needs are met in all respects, or insecure inthe sense that the child is abused or neglected.

Yes I put my hands up to a bit of point scoring with Hifi re her spelling.

Huglymuggly - I have just typed a very long response to your post and it has just disappeared and I'm too tired to re-type it all now, but will do so asap.

This is getting silly. All of us have things we don't approve of and we are all entitled to express our views.