Miscarriage bereavement leave -a sensitive well thought proposal or would there be unintended consequences

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz9k12w5j54o

This is extremely sensitive but I wonder if this well meaning proposal would become a reality in the workplace. I think in terms of employment the application of the rules may result in a scrutiny that would be potentially intrusive.

For example how would you prove to your employer you were pregnant?

Would the period of gestation count towards the leave given?

Would a father of the unborn child be entitled to similar leave to grieve and support their partner?

I think in the whole this is compassionate and a good stride forward but I do wonder about its practical uptake.

I used to be cabin crew, women lied all the time about being pregnant. They would call in pregnant in December, would be grounded on full pay immediately with no requirement to go in, and then call in with ‘pregnancy loss’ in January/February. No questions asked, and it means they got Xmas off. It was, and I suspect still is, very common.

That's a very callous answer. The fact that you went straight back to work doesn't mean everyone can or should. Unfortunately I also had several miscarriages, I only missed work the day of the D & C but I chose to return quickly, but I appreciate not everyone can physically or mentally. Women should have a choice.

Women do have a choice. They can self certify for 5 days which gives you 7 days off or get signed off by their GP if they need longer.

Much like someone mentioned above, I had a missed miscarriage and found out at my 12 weeks scan (which I thought was at 12+5 based on my dates) that I had lost the baby who had not grown past 7 to 8 weeks. However my body very much thought I was pregnant and I had severe morning sickness even after losing the baby. I had to have medical management which took a few days and I didn’t start to feel myself again until around 11 days after but I went back to work after 2 weeks. I took this as sick leave as I was sick and very unwell.

In reality I didn’t grieve until very recently and I was so focused on the medical site of the miscarriage that I would indeed greatly benefited from the extra time to grieve.

I think the option to take time to grieve any length of pregnancy would help so many people, including me who was trying to stay strong for my one year old.

But if an employee is signed off with stress you can send them for an occupational health review - no employer is going to want to make employees provide proof of a miscarriage but the potential for abuse is there.

My point was that the thread has gone the way of saying you can’t put a gestation limit on miscarriage leave, and my point is there already is a gestation limit on miscarriage, at the other end.

If my baby is born dead at 23 weeks in the UK I go back to work straight away unless a doctor declares me to be ill. If I take time off sick it does not have to be protected under maternity rights. I have not given birth, nobody has been born and nobody has died. I do not have access to the health and safety rights of women who have just given birth (because I haven’t given birth). If I want a funeral or service it’s entirely at my own cost. Historical records will show me to be childless.

If my baby is born dead at 24 weeks it is illegal for me to return to work for two-six weeks because I have given birth. I get a year of maternity leave and pay and my partner gets paternity leave. Someone has been born, somebody has died. I could apply for help with funeral expenses. Centrally kept historical records will show the child for ever.

having a debate about whether miscarriages are serious or worthy enough to qualify for this new leave at 11 weeks or 12 weeks and saying you can’t possibly put a time limit on it as it’s gatekeeping grief are ignoring the fact that it’s already happening.

I have had 7 miscarriages (all 10 weeks or less). I took a little time off sick for some, but not all (wasn’t working for the final 2).

I’m not sure how I feel about this, and I think the PP concerned about a slippery slope with regards to abortion is spot on - I don’t think we should underestimate the number of people who would like to get much stricter on abortion.

I never felt prostrate with grief. I hadn’t lost a baby, I had lost hope that there would be a baby.

(I should also say that despite a hell of a lot of poking and prodding around, they never found out what caused all these miscarriages for me. The last was about 12 years ago.)

I completely agree with you. You may be at a different physical stage, but you are still going to be feeling the same way regarding mourning the loss (if you wanted a child etc)

It’s public sector where people are likely to take advantage of these types of rules because no one cares as much as long as it’s ’within the rules’ and the jobs are often stressful and underpaid (teaching, NHS).

It's a different type of leave for MC, if they use their own sick leave means that they could spend their whole year's leave on a MC which isn't fair. Not all MC's are easily completed. On one the MC which wasn't a D & C I was so sore for the contractions that I couldn't seat without pain for 3 days after the actual MC.

Had I been working at a physical job, I wouldn't have been able to attend for a week.

I think that it's a good step forward from the government. Women will now have a choice to take the leave if they feel they need it.

Unfortunately, I had 3 MC's but in my case, I never told my employer. By the last one, my company has already added MC to the Bereavement leave which is 3 days. I chose to take my own sick leave, only what was medically necessary because I didn't want to alert them that I was looking to get pregnant because then they wouldn't consider me for important jobs. Also, I was doing IVF so I wanted to save my leave for the days I couldn't work due to procedures.

However, if I were happy in my current position, had a good boss, I would have taken the Bereavement leave. If you chose right, most employees just take sick leave when they really need them.

Different people, different grieving process. It doesn't matter how many weeks, you can't tell people that they can't grieve because it's less than 12 weeks. Shame on people gatekeeping grief and a few days off.

Whoever's is good at their job, will take only what's necessary. Also, lazy people who only want to miss work will find ways to get other leave, doctor's certificate or even get injured at work; but, can't punish everyone before a few are unethical.

For me, I think the discussion has become bogged down in "how much time is reasonable", and I don't think it is relevant. I entirely get that one person may not want or need time off, and another may take months to recover.

For me the issue is that introducing yet another form of leave / entitlement is going to make employers more and more hesitant about employing women of child-bearing age. Like that isn't an issue already. You will have miscarriage bereavement leave, then there's now protections around pregnancy, protections around maternity, parental leave; and all that is before you include sick leave that everyone gets, bereavement leave, the right to flexible working etc., etc. It isn't so much whether, in an ideal world, there shouldn't be more care and compassion in employment, or that women shouldn't have rights, or even that it seems this right may extend to men as well. When these things happen it is always a nail in the coffin of working women.

@PhilippaGeorgiou this leave also applies to the dad, as does parental leave and shared maternity leave

I had a MMC at 12 weeks and it was bloody horrendous. Mentally and physically there’s no way I could have worked. Had to take 2 weeks off and thankfully my work were more compassionate and kind about it than you are. Your experience is not the same as other people’s. Just because you were ok does not mean another woman would be.

I am aware of the latter two - since this one only suggests it will extend to both parents that is yet to be seen. But that misses the point I am making. Nobody is avoiding employing men because they are of a certain age, but they very definitely do avoid women of child bearing years. Not all no - but it is out there. I don't agree with it but wishes aren't horses. It is a fact. I used to work in the public sector, and despite what people think, I heard it often enough from recruiting managers. When many employers talk about "parental leaves / flexibilities" - whatever type they are - they often correctly assume that it will primarily be the woman using them. Until that changes and men are using them as much, thius will awlays be another barrier to women's careers. And making men eligible hasn't significantly chaged the balance in that direction.

So you had 2 weeks off which is what you needed and you will still be able to have that. Your Gp can sign you off for the additional week you needed. It doesn’t need to introduced as a separate legislation.

@Cakeyy may also depend on sick leave policy of an employer. And also a partner could potentially have time off if policy is as suggested

I can see the point about allowing fathers bereavement leave for early miscarriage as implying as the father is bereft he must feel a connection to the unborn child and maybe a sense of ownnership. This does run contrary to our views of women's bodily autonomy when it comes to early pregnancy and reproduction rights. Fathers have been brought into this through compassion for families but again unintended consequences.....

Also in terms of pay large organisations like the NHS will probably offer paid leave for the bereavement leave as for sick leave without any record for absence monitoring or references. This is fine for large organisations such as this but smaller employers....?

I do think business will have an issue with essentially women now having the right to phone with a statement of miscarriage and immediately be given 2 weeks leave under law. While compassionate employers would do this as a matter of course there will be some viewing this as a burden and add more friction into hiring and promoting women.

(By the way I doubt many men will take extended leave for early stage miscarriages)

Listening to this in the news this morning I was most alarmed by the assumptions from the miscarriage association of all people.

Miscarriage is not something that can be “lumped “ together by gestational loss. We are all so different, our miscarriages are unique to each of us. The comments were almost dismissive of the pre 12 week miscarriages.

I have never met or spoken to another women who had the same experiences as I did. (Thank fucking God, I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone).

I knew what I was doing, well practiced in fact after 7 of the fuckers.
3 days off even 2 weeks was not enough time off for me after some of them. I just rang in sick and got a sick note from my very understanding GP supported by my hospital discharge letters because I had to be admitted to hospital for each of my miscarriages.

I don’t “do” sick, in over 25 years my only sickness was due to my miscarriages in fact.

I can see both sides of this ....

I've sadly had 6 miscarriages (no surviving children) and I remember miscarrying my youngest daughter in the toilet at work and even though I was taken to hospital and my manager had actually witnessed me miscarrying and called the ambulance, I was expected to be in work the next day and the day we lost our eldest baby, my husband called in sick, explaining that we'd unexpectedly lost our baby and he was threatened with the sack if he didn't go in.
He didn't go in and they came and took his company vehicle off him the next morning - this was back in 1998 and we were only young and nowhere near as aware of our rights as we are now (with regards to what happened to my husband - the underlying story with that though, is that my husband's boss just had a personality clash with my husband and just wanted to get rid of him.

But on the other side as the OP says, what would the boundaries be? Would there be a limit of how pregnant you are to qualify (we all know that different people feel differently about babies/embryos in the first trimester for example - some people see the pregnancy "as just a bundle of cells" and others see it as a "baby" - for me, I was in the latter once the heartbeat started, so the "babies" we lost in the first trimester were very much "babies" for us and we were heartbroken with each miscarriage no matter which trimester it occurred in, but it could be totally different for others - my mum lost a baby in her first trimester and she never grieved about it or even thought about it, because to her, it wasn't a baby yet.

It's a tough call and a very emotive subject.

To be honest I manage staff and have had a number who have suffered miscarriages and loss through Ectopic pregnancies or failed IVF.
i treat all instances as if a bereavement however they do not qualify for bereavement leave but I give compassionate leave and if they feel unable to return they can go on sick leave (which does not result in any processes as this is covered by a protected characteristic).
Its important here to be supportive of mothers and fathers experiencing such losses and they should never be minimised.
I guess it’s good to have something as not all employers are sympathetic.

No it isn’t the reason scans take place at 12 weeks. Scans take place at 12 weeks as up until this point all babies develop at the same rate. It allows for accurate dating - more accurate than by LMP which relies on you fitting the average cycle/fertilisation/implantation - which can differ by a much as 2 weeks depending on the individual. A 12 week foetus is big enough to visually assess and carry out screening measurements more accurately. Honestly, you are making this up as you go along to fit your narrative.

You are mistaken. If you take time off sick after a miscarriage yes it does have to be protected under maternity rights. It must be recorded as pregnancy related illness in line with the Equality Act.

I can’t find the previous post that mentioned Bradford factor included their miscarriage absence. Miscarriage related sickness absence shouldn’t be included in Bradford calculations and if it is then this amounts to maternity discrimination.

Everyone I know knows that it’s common to miscarry in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. I don’t understand why that is news to anyone. Let’s not pretend that it’s the same as losing a pregnancy at 16 or 20 weeks.

Let’s not pretend that’s why scans are carried out at 12 weeks.