Why does everyone say that the civil service is low-paid?

[YourPoisedFinch]

friend in big 4 audit-- 32k to 50k in 3 years
friend in civil service, as a statistician --- 33k to 55k in 3 years on fast stream

I'm in a rather unusual dept that has very few AA-EOs and lots of G7-G6 due to the technical nature of what we do. We are paid well by CS standards - I started many many years ago as an HEO and am paid approx £75k as a G6. (I have a team of 4 by the way so also not the case that G7s / G6s are always managing hundreds of people). But my role is one that also exists in Big 4 / Finance / Banks etc, where someone of my level would probably be on £120k? So i think that's what people mean when they say underpaid - not necessarily that they are earning too little.

I love the flexibility of the CS for my DC though, and I love that what I do makes a real impact to taxpayers of this country every day. So it's definitely a love of public service that keeps me around! My pension is mostly in the career average scheme linked to retirement at 68.and is worth a good amount already so that's also a bonus. Plus I get flexitime and 35days holiday + BH due to length of service. After all these years, I still get a little thrill when I get to go into the House of Commons for a meeting (happens very rarely!)

For example those dealing with immigration assessments are paid 20-25k and there is a staff retention issue.

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A job with massively varying salary. In my field (academia) a Professor of Statistics gets £70k.

I’m in the CS working in big IT projects. I once discussed salaries with one of the private contractors that I was tasked with directing. He literally did not believe me. I mean literally. (How low my salary is). I had to show him my online payslip. 😁

My friend is a G7. Heading an operational unit of 120 staff doing high profile work. The EOs earn 34. The HOs earn about 39. The SOs earn about 45. She manages the lot of them on 63K. After a 30 year career in London following a post grad degree. What CEOs earn less than twice the lowest paid in the company?

It must vary a lot from department to department, and job to job. I work in a team of 5 (equivalent of SEOs and HEOs) headed by a G7. But we're an analytical team. I think G7s in ops may be responsible for a lot more staff.

Most civil servants aren't fast streamers. I think project managers, HR, Finance, Lawyers would all usually get more in the private sector (but no option of part-time).

I’m private sector, and my company pays 25% of my salary into my pension. I only get 25 days annual leave though (plus the 8 bank holidays).

The couple I know both work in the civil service, but live in an ex council house and have done for almost 20 years. If it was really well paid they'd surely have moved to a nicer area...

On top of the large number of people on minimum wage or slightly above as already mentioned, a significant portion of particularly the lower levels of civils service roles are currently held by agency staff who do not have access to civil service pension schemes, or most of the other benefits.

I'm a G7 and specialised and I'm expected to have deep policy expertise, brief ministers and am in charge of a biggish budget.

There is a direct equivalent for my role in the private sector which would be about 35-40k more plus bonus. Obviously the pension is better (but we do pay for that as well! The contributions are quite high).

I believe really strongly in public service which is why I stay but I can't pretend I've not sniffed around some private sector roles. That's quite a significant difference when we're in London and I'm the main breadwinner.

My best HEO was rejected from the fast stream twice. Hardly anyone gets in. Most civil servants are not in Whitehall and are badly paid.

DH made the leap to private sector last year after being in the civil service since he was a casual AA over 30 years ago and working his way up. He was stuck at EO equivalent for many years due to moving into a different more niche work area and then being limited at where he was based in the country for when vacancies came up. When I think about the shit money he was on all those years for the skills and experience he had it makes me want to weep. The responsibility he had. All the overtime he had to when our kids were tiny just to make any proper money, none of which was pensionable.

He believed in the job though and stuck with it, seeing colleagues move to the private sector and firmly believing that despite the lack of proper payrises over many years, what he was doing was something really important.

One day he'd just had enough for busting a gut for very little financial reward and more and more work being piled on him. He was headhunted by an ex colleague in the private sector. He makes so much more money now, mainly works from home, actual bonuses rather than just commendations, shares scheme, good pension. I wish he'd done it years back, and I think he does too in some ways.

It's sad because when he first became EO and we'd moved to London it was a decent salary. We had a nice lifestyle. If his pay had kept up with inflation, and house prices hadn't risen so rapidly it would still seem ok.

I don't know what the answer is. Life has just got too expensive to work for the public sector your whole life just because you think it's worthy. The so-called gold plated pension isn't enough anymore, because what's getting paid in isn't enough anymore.

Seriously?!

Comparisons between CS and private sector vary regionally I think. We're in the NE and DH is CS and anything he has seen similar in private has been lower salary.

Yet people I know brag about how great it is working in the CS🤷‍♀️

Usually because its so flexible, great pension, varied work etc.

Pick your department very carefully then. Not all of them are ACTUALLY 9-5.

I know! But thank you, as it is an important point. But the one I have my eye on is notoriously so and is very unlikely to change because it's very niche and work life balance is the only reason they can recruit given how poor the salary is compared to the private sector.

Yeah, haven't you noticed how low the pay is at the bottom grades, for the work that's required? I'm school support staff, which was all know is badly paid. I have over the years considered a move to CS a couple of times, and thought, "no, I'll stick to my shitty wage in education". It feels odd even typing that, but it's true.

Flexibly is not as it was. Now there is late working plus strict rotas.

Plus the abusive staff take is awful.

Flexibly is not as it was. Now there is late working plus strict rotas. Plus the abusive staff take is awful.

I suspect this is limited to public facing and/or very operational roles? My department doesn't even have core hours, rotas do not exist! We can all go on leave at the same time and no one bays an eye lid...

Yep I’m talking about DWP specifically.

The big four have salaries that go as high as 500k plus and plus bonuses. Don’t think the civil service matches those pay scales

It's also worth pointing out that there are many people on CS T&Cs who do nothing like what the public perceive as 'civil servants'.

HSE inspectors, environmental regulators, emergency planning, scientists, national highways etc. Many people working there travel nationwide, work long days, stay away from home, do site visits, field work etc. That Border Force officer who checks your passport after your flight lands at 2 am is a civil servant.

The flexibility is often heavily in the employers favour, your job next month is spending the week in County X, 150 miles from home and you will stay in the Travelodge next to the dual carriageway and eat dinner in the shitty chain pub next door because that's all the T&S allowance covers.

Not a cosy office job where you can pop out to do the school run. Even the desk jobs could involve evening and weekend work if you're in a call centre type role, eg HMRC helpline hours are 8 till 8 weekdays and 8 til 4 on Saturdays.

It’s often quite hard to be promoted in the civil service and to get actual pay rises, not just cost of living rises.

100%

The best way to get on in the CS is to move around (sometimes called Z-Pathing) to gain relevant experience, build your networks and learn about the government department (s) you're in. That's based on my experience of how it's working for me. Moving between Govt depts gives a really wide range of opportunities

CS is a fantastic place to work, the trouble is on MN you'll get posters focusing on the recruitment process (which is very slow) or on pay.

We're publicly funded so of course staff won't be paid telephone numbers. But the upsides are a strong focus on culture / inclusion, flexible working strongly supported, family friendly hours and pension, and plenty of opportunities to move around. But you (one) can't expect promotion and upward trajectory to happen overnight or magically happen without any effort. Or promotion in role. Not dissimilar to private sector you have to be willing to take chances try things out and not always like every job you're in.

what you describe proves the point that the CS is made up of hundreds of Government department and functions and that there is some form of employment to meet many people's needs. Highly skilled through mundane admin work, There must be something in it for the HMRC or DWP worker for them to stay in that job for years. Probably the job stability, and convenience of location - most UK cities have an HMRC office.

I know of people working on military bases who've been there decades, since school. They're working with people they went to school with and they're in their 50s!