Washington DC Plane/Helicopter Collision

[ThatEllie]

Is anyone awake and following this, or anyone in the States? It looks horrific. A US military Blackhawk helicopter collided with an American Airlines plane and both went down into the Potomac River.

You can see helicopters circling like mad on FlightRadar. I really hope they’re finding people.

www.nytimes.com/live/2025/01/29/us/plane-crash-washington-dc

I think the other Juan video is earlier on when there was less data available. The one I’ve just posted is more recent.

I know I’ll be criticised for being speculative but I think the altitude is the story and the question.

The focus seems to be on ATF and blame and I feel very sorry for this guy. I wonder if he wasn’t that focused as choppers are meant to be at 200 feet anyway.

I also for what’s it’s worth think this is deliberate.

Its awfully lucky that plane crashes in the river and not over the city. Very unlucky that the chopper has both increased altitude outside of rules & collided & failed to see the plane.

I also for what’s it’s worth think this is deliberate.

I think it is way, way too soon to be saying anything like this.

Additionally, this particular plane was shifted to runway 33 not long before the crash - not something that a saboteur could have planned for, surely? My understanding is that there have been a number of near misses over the past few years because the airspace is very tight.

I don't think the two names released of the helicopter crew were officially released - the relatives did it, IIRC. Possibly the third crew member's family isn't ready for the name to be released.

Reported on Sky (quoting NBC News) re recent issue:

Another plane had to avoid helicopter traffic at same airport on day before crash
Another flight reportedly had to avoid landing at the same airport to avoid helicopter traffic on the day before the crash.
Our US partner network NBC News reports Republic Airways Flight 4514 had to make a "go-around" on its way to Reagan Washington National Airport.
Citing air traffic control audio from LIVEATC.net, NBC said the pilot told controllers they "had an RA with the helicopter traffic below us".
RA refers to a resolution advisory, an emergency code used when an aircraft is told to perform a manoeuvre to avoid threats or to maintain existing separation.
NBC reports the plane landed safely at the airport at 8.11pm.

Looking at the air traffic system the route maps both as depicted in Juan Browne’s video and elsewhere the helicopter route is a “not above 200 feet” for the section in question (east abeam DCA)..

I’m not sure if there’s what’s known as a charted visual approach for 33 that the CRJ might have been following (I’ll check) but just looking at the extended 33 centreline, projecting it back south eastwards to the heli route and using a rule of thumb that on a standard 3 degree descent you descend 300 feet per mile and you can pretty soon work out that there’s stuff all headroom between the top of the helicopter route at 200 feet and the vertical path anything on established on a 3 degree glide path to runway 33.

….As for the ADS playbacks shown it looks like the helicopter gets up to 300 feet…now technically yes, that’s a “level bust “, but I’d not be thinking it’s malicious or deliberate. I say that because whilst I’m not sure about helicopters I know in some fixed wing aircraft when hand flying you could accidentally drift 100 feet up from datum if you sneezed….😬

All the above is why many people are now saying this particular section of the route system, combined with the use of conditional clearances, was an accident waiting to happen and it’s probably mainly down to luck that it has not happened before.

FWIW the last altitude figure I see for the CRJ is 400 feet, descending into the helicopter which is indicating at 300..but those numbers are rounded to the nearest hundred feet, there will be some latency and some errors in the data that will have to be filtered by the investigators.

Thanks so much to @notimagain and @SheilaFentiman for all the calm, factual information and explanations.
I found this interview with an ex RAF helicopter pilot helpful too
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3tAl5wFDJ0I&pp=ygUbc2t5IG5ld3MgdWsgY3Jhc2ggUkFGIHBpbG90
It's being reported (BBC & LBC)that one Air Traffic Controller was performing two roles at the time of the incident, covering both military and civil flights in the section. This is said to be due to another ATC having been allowed to leave early..

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2025/01/31/faa-indefinitely-closes-routes-near-reagan-national-most-helicopter-traffic-after-deadly-crash.html

That “click” you may have just heard is the stable door being locked.

I'm from the U.S. I don't know why news was reporting 4 survivors. All of the the reports here are saying no survivors.They are still looking for bodies. Apparently the helicopter was flying too low and was off course. Also there was one air traffic controller on duty when there was usually two.

My son is in Washington and he said he was a mile away from the crash and is now worried about flying home. I've tried to reassure him but it's a worrying time until he lands back.

@2025willbemytime

Can I ask if he flying out of DCA or elsewhere?

If it’s DCA then if helps the helicopter routes near that airport have now been shutdown (they may have been a major factor in the accident).

If by chance he’s coming out of Dulles (IAD) that’s almost a backwater by comparison with DCA, out in the countryside and IMHO probably one of the more straightforward US airports from a traffic and ATC point of view.

I've messaged to ask him as I don't know. It is next week if that's relevant for the changes.

JFK.

There's been another crash, in Philadelphia. Not the same kind of incident, a small private plane.

I'm not inclined to conspiracy theories but it seems odd they're refusing to name one of the helicopter crew.

They’ve said it’s at the request of the family.

The U.S. Army released a statement Friday afternoon confirming the identities of [two soldiers] Eaves and O’Hara, and they said the name of the third solider would not be released at this time at the request of the family. Forbes

This second crash is also dreadful. Have read it was a medical transport. Bloody hell.

In the US in 2021, the latest year for which I can currently find figures, private aircraft flew 22 million hours with 344 deaths and 221 serious injuries.

That's small planes, microlights, balloons etc and would include aircraft like the one so sadly lost in the Philadelphia crash.

The Philly crash is dreadful. I have seen footage, there was a massive explosion in the city proper. People seem to be suspecting some kind of mechanical failure though it's too early to say. It's awful though. The report is that there was a girl on board who had travelled to Philadelphia for treatment and was returning home to Mexico. (We lived in Philadelphia for 2 years when we moved to the USA and the children's hospital there is outstanding. I would travel back there any time.)

The reports here are about understaffing. 2 people were doing the work of 4 the night of the DC crash and almost all FAA facilities are understaffed, some by up to 40%. Trump and Musk are going to be doing a lot of dodging with their DOGE and layoffs mentality. Hard to blame DEI if the issue is that no one was there to do the work, never mind that Trump's previous government supposedly dropped the problematic questionnaire in 2018!

I agree. Snippy comment.

Morning..

Well definitely not a backwater but from memory it doesn’t have the helicopter lane issues that DCA has/had.

Used to be a bit demanding with ATC inbound but main grumble outbound used to be how long it took to taxi out, especially during the evening rush…other than that fairly civilized.

Thank you. I know I'm worrying unnecessarily but I hadn't realised he was so close and with him saying he's scared...he never says that.

@2025willbemytime I feel for you, I'd be exactly the same.
Such helpful and knowledgeable input from @notimagain .
As they say ,MN at its best.

There were not enough staff covering ATC; why was someone allowed to go home early?

Several black hawk pilots have said that especially for a night flight there should have been at least 4 crew on board, two looking forward and one either side to be checking for anything and everything. Plus they were off their flight plan and higher than they should be.

The whole things either weird and poor timing or it’s simple pilot error. Or the conspiracy nuts are right.

Maybe someone was ill and needed to leave 🤷🏻‍♀️. They only left 30 mins early, maybe they had time owing due to previous shifts getting off late and the supervisor thought it was quiet enough for them to go. If it’s the latter I wouldn’t want to be the supervisor

Chances are that any lower staffing levels (in any area) were part of a working practice where everything is squeezed for “productivity” and there is no back up/redundancy in the system. So it might be poor timing - if someone did leave early - but it might be endemic that sickness/emergency cover just isn’t there.

How many of us are in workplaces where someone leaves and isn’t replaced because the PTB need to cut costs and think we can all just do a little more? We know the NHS, for one, is often operating at or below the bare minimum. That’s not a conspiracy.

It’s not weird.

Heaven knows why by some people like leaping into really complex explanations when, like in many accidents, what probably happened here is quite simple. It quite possibly will turn out to be a combination of one or two small errors and a badly designed Airspace system that wasn’t tolerant to the sort of errors human being occasionally make.

If you take a busy airport, run a helicopter lane down the edge of it, literally 100 feet beneath, directly under an approach path you’re asking for trouble, especially if you then use visual separation at night pretty much your only means of avoiding collision.

TBH the helicopter being maybe at most 150 feet above the top of the helicopter lane is an error but in a properly designed routing system that in itself should not have brought it into conflict with the airliner, a shortage of controllers, in itself, should not have caused the conflict…

There will be a lot to unpick here but to reiterate the educated clever money now is on this being a combination of history (the reason for the helicopter routes, why the airport is where it is,) and maybe a handful of minor errors by human beings.

I think it is easy for us to forget how very unnatural it is for us to be high in the sky or deep under the sea or moored in a storm in a massive superyacht.

That we can do it at all is a testament to the massive collective power of human intelligence. That, very occasionally - in the scheme of the numbers of worldwide flights - things go wrong without malice aforethought, is really part and parcel of us operating on the outskirts of human capability. Not a conspiracy.