Can someone please explain the end of Harry Potter to me?

[Tonight37]

Please explain it to me as though I’m 5.

Is Albus Dumbledore good or bad?

What about Snape?

Thanks

😂 love the blunt questions, these were exactly what I asked DH when I finally watched the last movie only a month ago. Thanks Netflix.

I think snape is a grey character.

He is secretly on the good side feeding information to Dumbledore as a double agent, because Voldemort went after Lily who he loved because of the prophecy about Harry. He follows Dumbledores plans and manages to fool Voldemort which took extreme skill and courage.

But I mean he was a baddie before that... Like a nazi who decided to change sides.

But he's still such a prick to Neville who's parent's were tortured into madness.

So I don't think he is "good."

Definitely. Snape should be the same age as Harry's parents, so only early 30s in the first film. Ditto Petunia, who should only be maybe a couple of years older than that (maybe max 35?)

Dumbledore was arrogant and thought he knew better than everyone else. Purposely kept people in the dark and left a literal child to fight in a war.
Snape was an evil shit. He murdered and tortured people without giving a fuck until it was some girl he was infatuated with. A girl who repeatedly told him she wasn't interested and to leave her alone. He was also fine with Voldemort killing her child as long as he spared her. What mother would want to carry on when her husband and child were dead ? He then bullied children to the extent that he was one child's greatest fear, a child whose parents were tortured to insanity was still more terrified of snape. He is a bad man with No redeeming qualities.

Re Snape, I don't think you can claim to be a good person just because you are fighting a 'bad' oppressor. Snape was mean, he bullied children and particularly targeted orphans. That's about as low as you can get. We see he is a damaged person who was bullied and experienced unrequited love, just like every other nasty abusive person in the world.

Loving this thread, I think I want to re read as its been a while.

I dont think you can blame Dumbledore for Harry’s childhood . The Dursleys were his next of kin and only living relatives, Dumbledore wasn’t to know how it would turn out.

I agree with this, and think those nuances and misplaced hatred are what makes the books so great in some ways.

Snape and Dumbledore are neither 100% good or bad. They are Flawed and realistic. Dumbledore does what he thinks is the best thing at the time. Sometimes he gets it wrong.

Snape was a 'baddie' until he realised how bad the death eaters really were, and then he became a double agent. Like a PP said, this happens in real life too. Nazi's turned spy etc.

Harry was an immature kid who hated Snape. Firstly because Snape appeared to hate him, and later because Sirius did.

Snape: a selfish man (and tortured by his childhood and his schoolboy bullies), who did many evil things, however redeemed by his unrequited love for Lily. That he COULD love meant that he was never really as nasty as he acted, and by the end he lived out the most vital virtue in resisting evil; courage. This meant that when it came to it, in order to love Lily, he sacrificed himself for Harry. Because he loved Lily, when Voldemort killed Snape, he was not the master of the elder wand because Snapes love for Lily meant he served dumbledore. In short: complex man with many deep flaws but ultimately redeemed by his love for Lily.

Dumbledore: a brilliant and generally good man, however tempted by glory and power, which lead him to pursue dreams to the neglect of his sister. His love for his family ultimately provided the fortitude he needed to resist the blandishments of power and the evil it creates. He was on the whole a “good guy” who had personal moral failings that caused him to circumscribe his own actions in order to prevent himself falling into the trap of power.

Harry: an actual good guy. A young man who pursued idealistically the path laid out for him by dumbledore, but who grew frustrated because he felt lost and alone. He was tempted by the deathly hallows, but his love for Dobby finally closed down that obsession and he acted ultimately for the good of resisting evil.

All 3 characters were complex, however what unifies them is that their lives were marked by love, and as a result they were able to love. This is the difference between Voldemort and his nastiest death eaters (Bellatrix, Rowle, Greyback etc) that their lives were not constituted by love, and in consequence they were unable to pursue redemption.

even this summary is still unhelpfully brief. There’s a great deal to say, but in JKR world the highest virtue is love, and then the courage (which is often the courage to love). Love is what shields people from evil and directs them away from evil and to good. Desire for power and glory are the pathways to evil.

I think they realised the Dursleys weren't great, but I don't suppose they anticipated them making him sleep in a cupboard and basically emotionally abusing him for his whole childhood.

@MelodyMalone they did know he was sleeping in a cupboard. His letter was addressed to the cupboard. And they were practically starving him he was so skinny. Which they also knew because miss fig was watching. And they also knew from her that if she let Harry have any fun he wouldn't have been able to go to her house anymore.
I honestly think dumbledore must have interfered with social services. I can't believe the obvious abuse was never reported by the school.

Yes, I meant when they left him there they didn't necessarily know how bad it would be for him. But evidently became aware of that over the years.

I'd forgotten about Mrs Figg keeping an eye.

Because he loved Lily, when Voldemort killed Snape, he was not the master of the elder wand because Snapes love for Lily meant he served dumbledore.

Voldemort didn't become the master of the elder wand when he killed Snape because Snape was never the master of it either. Draco was.

That’s true although if the Dumbledore/snape plan had come off Voldemort still couldnt have got at the want through Snape because the power would have died with Dumbledore- the undefeated master of the wand.

which is an extraordinary arrogant plan if you think about it!

Both Dumbledore and Snape fought very bravely to defeat Voldemort and died doing so. So if you want it very simply then they were both good, yes.

However, Snape was a bully who should never have been working with children and Dumbledore was arrogant and did a terrible job of safeguarding his students.

Book 1-4 Dumbledore and book 5-6 Dumbledore are basically two different people though, I would say 🤷🏻‍♀️

There were other possibilities for protecting Harry, but Dumbledore chose what he considered the strongest one to keep him alive ie the Dursleys.

I don’t think he cared much about lesser harm, vs death.

Yeah - Snape is brilliant at potions and may even be a good teacher in some respects, but his behaviour as a teacher is awful. He bullies Harry because he hated his father, which is hardly Harry's fault, terrorises Neville because - well, just because, openly favours the Slytherins, etc. Not exactly a positive learning environment!

Havent read the thread since I posted last night but seen some comments about Snape.....there was one moment that they did brilliantly in the last film when McGonnagal duels him. She raises his wand and he pauses, really not wanting to fight her. He never attacks, she does and he defends, he never once attacks her. I think that was another moment where the mask of undercover Snape fell.

And he deflects one of her spells so it hits the Carrows.

I like that bit. He also deflects her spells onto the death eaters behind him.

Another bit is in the third film, when confronted by werewolf Lupin he stands in front of the three children, pushing them back behind him with his arms.
(In contrast to Umbridge who hides behind Harry and Hermione when the centaurs are being threatening.)

Obviously he is also an unpleasant bully the majority of the time!

Oh I missed that! But that came across so powerfully that even he had things he wouldnt do and attacking her was one of them. Probably partly because he respected and cared for her but mainly because he knew that she was the best person to simultaneously lead the students and to keep them safe.

Yeah that at the first watching (bear in mind it was the first encounter I had with HP, not seen a film or read any of the books until then), from what I knew it was assumed it was because he was a teacher and didnt want awkward questions about why he didnt protect them. Now I think that he really was protecting them.

I do really buy into him as genuine undercover agent, and acting the part. As a PP said, the serious stuff Harry did, like sectumsempra, Snape covered for him. He tried to get him chucked out several times knowing full well it wouldnt happen, just to keep up his image of bullying bastard. If he was even handed all round the likes of Lucius and that other DE parents would want to know why their kids werent being given preferential treatment. The Neville thing is the only problem I have with it though. Neville was no threat, no link to him in anyway. Why bully him? He could have simply ignored him as he did the other Gryffindors. If he needed someone to pick on as part of his act why not pick on someone more able to cope with it such as Seamus or Dean? Someone with a bit of "up yours" about them? Unless, again that was part of some plan to make Neville stronger and able to deal with Voldemort when the time came as Neville would inevitably be involved given the prophecy.....that may be a very deep dive though!

I do have a tendency to overthink, I dont need the internet for rabbit holes, have thousands in my head!

@PyongyangKipperbang does he maybe resent Neville because he was the other baby the prophecy could have applied to, and if Voldemort had thought it was Neville, Lily would be alive?

That might be a stretch though.

Snake was complex secretly in the side of good. He still hated Harry and his dad but his loved lily more than he hated Harry and James. He sacrificed a lot and ultimately led a very tragic life

Just googled and that seems to be the most popular theory! Not a stretch at all.