England is running out of teachers

[noblegiraffe]

Or, to be clear, people who are willing to teach in schools. It has plenty of ex teachers who have vowed never to set foot in a school again.

While everyone seems to understand that you can't expect to see a doctor or dentist anymore, the message about not being able to expect your child to have a teacher anymore doesn't seem to have filtered through in the same way.

The number of cover lessons that kids are having is going through the roof. Some people think that if a kid has an adult in front of them then they are learning something, where kids know if they have a 'supply' timetabled that afternoon they are in for a doss lesson. Some people think that if a kid has a teacher for their subject that the teacher actually knows the subject being taught, which is increasingly not the case. Some people think that if lessons are being planned for those teachers and the teacher just has to 'deliver' them then that will be good enough, which is often not the case.

Exam classes at least used to be protected and given the 'good teachers', which is increasingly no longer the case, with Y11s reporting that they have a variety of supply teachers, even in core subjects.

There was a thread recently where an A-level student hadn't had a teacher for a year, wondering why the school hadn't done anything about it. We cannot magic up teachers! A-level students at my school are increasingly in the position of not having a teacher and having to teach themselves, and schools are now encouraged to put 'no teacher' on UCAS applications as relevant information for universities.

Recent threads about suggesting teachers need to be paid more to boost recruitment, or given a day off a fortnight to boost recruitment have attracted replies about teachers thinking they are special, or lazy, paid well enough already and having enough time off already.

But the education system is in crisis and something needs to drastically change as it's only getting worse.

The DfE's solution is to hire from abroad, at a time when the rest of government is seeking to reduce immigration.
https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/dfe-mulls-boost-international-recruitment

@noblegiraffe

*Why did you not say that 'the starting salary of £30k isn't bad for someone with a degree from an elite university' then?

Because it doesn't sound quite as good?*

Are you ok? Do you need to lie down and sleep off whatever vicious mood caught hold of you to respond in this strange and unprovoked manner? I was interested by your post initially & then……..I lost interest as clearly you can’t manage a balanced discussion

People tut when I sigh. People definitely tut when I swear. People absolutely tut when I start threads.

I get tutted at a lot.

You wouldn't (be allowed to) send him to school without knowing how to walk or wipe his bum

Sadly, you’d be surprised. We have plenty of children not only unable to wipe their own bum, but still in pull ups and nappies (not pupils with SEN) in Reception and even year 1. We are not allowed to refuse to admit them-Equality Act etx

This is untrue. A supply teacher is not the same thing as a cover supervisor. Though some unqualified teachers do supply work - and are paid less than a qualified teacher - most supply teachers are qualified teachers who, for many differing reasons, do not want a permanent job at that moment. Some teachers become “professional” supply, and as such have an impressive range of skills that mean they are in high demand.

Sigh ❌

swear ✔️

noblegiraffe threads ✔️

Yes, I'm fine, thanks. I was just objecting to a poster who suggested that they got a £30k teaching job off the back of some dodgy A-levels. Which they didn't.

I'm not entirely sure why they tried to suggest that was the case.

I can never please everyone so I mainly go with pleasing myself.

Pleasing yourself ✔️

Two young male graduates, family and friends recently completed their PGSE. Both were Physics graduates. Willing and able to enter teaching at the salary stated. Neither now will. Each had horrendous experiences during their school placements and were unwilling to put up with the shit behaviour from students and parents.

A friend of DH, retrained in his mid forties. Ex army, high level management in IT. Didn't need the money. Good at discipline etc. Loved it until a young lady accused him of touching her. He lost his job, and was severely traumatized by the experience. She later admitted she made it up for a laugh.

So, three men, in high need teaching areas, lost to teaching.

My subject (computing) isn’t being taught at GCSE at lots of schools now as they can’t get anyone who can teach it. I wouldn’t go back to teaching unless my kids were starving and it was the only job left so I won’t be stepping in. I do worry about the future of the country though and what jobs our kids will get if we just stop teaching them things when we aren’t willing to improve pay and conditions of their teachers.

Also if AI can ‘learn’ something well enough to ‘teach’ it what’s the point in any human learning it? Might as well just all give up now 😁

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying

"What is the problem with the curriculum? Is it too difficult?"

Basically, yes, it's pitched too high with abstract concepts being brought in when children are still at a concrete level of learning.

Also, over-crowded so no room to develop children's interests or be creative.

Lots of dull content (grammar)

It isn't all about money if your life is a living hell, abused by pupils and persecuted by staff, including leaders. No amount of money makes it worthwhile.

Lets not forget spectacularly bad management.

My DD went through her schooling in schools in Greater London where the majority of her peers had English as a second language. She also was part of a school where children with SEND were integrated into lessons as there was a unit for this within her school grounds. From the very beginning of her GCSEs she realised she had to be motivated to teach herself and I realised she would need any help I could give her. She taught herself A level Sociology in Year 13 as she had no teacher. She has always wanted to be a Primary School teacher and is now in her first year at Uni doing just that. This Uni is not in London and in a fairly rural area. She has had her first placement in a large primary school where English is the first language and there was only one SEND student in her class - this has really made her aware of how challenging her own schooling had been. I desperately want my DD to come home after Uni so she can work and save for a few years without rent but I want her to enjoy her teaching too. So my question is @noblegiraffe , in your experience, is it teaching or is it where you are teaching that is making teachers walk away?

In addition to this, parents need to realise that THEY are their child's first and most important teacher. You wouldn't (be allowed to) send him to school without knowing how to walk or wipe his bum, so why do you think it is ok not to teach him number sense or reading preparation?

I do think this is so true. You get any number of threads from people expecting schools/nurseries to teach their children:

• toilet training
• dressing/buttons/zips
• cooking or food prep
• exercise/swimming/sport
• basic hygiene
• table manners, how to use knife and fork
• general manners

FFS children have parents who need to teach them all these things.

Really most children should be starting school already able to:

• count to 10 mostly accurately
• recognise some numerals, if a bit unreliably
• recognise and name a square, circle and triangle
• know the name of their town/village/city
• know how old they are
• be able to count 3/4 objects
• recognise a few letters & know the sounds, especially more common ones like "s", "m", "a" "d" or maybe some/all the letters of their own name
• listen to an age appropriate story
• use a pencil, e.g to draw a face/ stick figure or similar simple picture
• recognise and have a go at writing own name
• be able to use a pen/pencil to make some of the marks needed for letter formation eg straight lines up and down or side to side, circles, wavy lines
• do buttons, even if it takes a while
• put on and take off own socks and shoes
• use the loo independently, and recognise when they need to go
• eat lunch independently, including knife and fork use albeit unlikely to be perfect two handed etc

Of course a handful won't be able to do these things for some reason but these are not unrealistic expectations for most - yet a lot of people seem to think its normal for a child of 4 to start school unable to do any of this.

Thank you. I won’t attempt to tread on your toes - you teach, I don’t - but I’m very surprised that kings and queens is too abstract for year 1s.

As for grammar, surely young children aren’t learning abstruse grammar? It must be nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs, adjectives, conjunctions, tenses, and so on, isn’t it - the basics?

Ah. England is different from Scotland in that respect then.

It probably explains why supply teachers moving from England to Scotland have been surprised that they're required to register with the General Teaching Council for Scotland first - you have to have a PGCE or PGDE to be a member.

Yes. If that’s an issue, which it seems to be, then it needs sorting out.

Basically, yes, it's pitched too high with abstract concepts being brought in when children are still at a concrete level of learning.

Can you give some examples of things you think are pitched too high? The only one where I would say its a bit mad is some of the Ks2 grammar in particular which 95% of adults don't know & have never needed.

Anyone can work as supply, they are just called cover supervisors. They have no teaching qualification

I’m in England and if we hire supply from an agency, they are qualified teachers-we know lots of them now, to be honest. We don’t have cover supervisors, I thought that was just in secondary.

I do not believe that it’s inherently a shit job, rather an intellectually and emotionally rewarding one which many people would do for present wages, pension and holidays if they weren’t confronted by classrooms with many disruptive anti-learners. And, outside the classroom, confronted by god awful parents.

It really isn't just that though. It's also workload, which has increased enormously since I first started teaching, nearly 30 years ago.

WhatstheUseofWorrying
I mostly agree with you except in ks2 there are some grammar bits which to be honest most adults have never needed to know.

It's vanishingly rare to need to describe fronted adverbials in real life.

My cousin has been a teacher for over 25 years and is now deputy head at a secondary school (children 11-18 years old) in Scotland. On the first day of the new term in August she was spat on, slapped in the face and punched in the stomach by pupils. The levels of violence are increasing in schools which will also be putting a lot of people off becoming teachers and causing teachers to leave the profession early.

The danger zone in teaching is being UPS3 and middle aged then you are considered old and expensive. You may have been outstanding in OFSTED terms but all of a sudden you will be on a performance improvement plan and on your way out

Adding fractions at age 8. Just why?

Finding 2/3, 4/5 of a fraction in year 3. Most children are only just able to find 1/3 etc ie one part of a fraction

Fronted adverbials in year 4