Our education system is an utter shit show

[Noonelikesasloppytrifle]

I don't think people outside of education realise what an utter mess our education system is in and how bad it actually is.

I have 4 DC with one still in primary and the rest at secondary or 6th form. I have worked in various educational settings and have been a Governor. I am currently working in a large secondary ( 1500 students) in a pastoral role having moved from another area of the public sector which is also in a mess. My DC all attended state primaries. Two of them are now privately educated with the other 2 attending state grammars and one moving to a sixth form college.

I have been really shocked by how bad it is in the school I work at. It has clearly been managed badly for a number of years (former head went on long-term sick, followed by maternity, followed by sick leave) so they were rudderless for a while. They have just joined a MAT who all want the same behaviour policies with a blanket discipline regime and no regard to the individual needs of the kids. There are a mix of behavioural problems but they are all lumped together so those kids who have SEMH issues are punished for not attending lessons when the classroom environment is so toxic for them that they can't cope. There is no resource for it to be dealt with in any other way.

The curriculum and assessment schedule has completely disenfranchised a whole raft of kids. At the start of year seven they're already aware that scraping a 4 in most subjects would be their best outcome but they're forced to sit in classes where the only attainment measure is an exam at the end and we wonder why we see so many challenging behaviours in lessons. There are barely any TA's so often 30 students with one teacher and some very difficult kids to deal with.

This week at my school they had so many staff off sick that for three days we had 5 classes put together in the main hall. It was either that or close the school.

The staff all appear to dislike each other. Teachers don't like SLT or pastoral but also exhibit a sense of entitlement. It's certainly not an "we're all in it together" type of attitude.

School are expected to solve all the ills of society. On a daily basis we're dealing with the impact of poor parenting, lack of boundaries, the poor diet and social media etc etc. There is so little resource to deal with this properly

I know that not all schools are like this. My 16 yr old DC (at Grammar) does not report the same issues at their school that I do at mine. However, I do know that our other nearest secondary is experiencing the same thing as us and they have a similar demographic (rural county).

I feel so sad for the kids coming out of this system, particularly those without the network around them to provide support and direction.

Again, maybe wording, but teachers 'resenting' SEN kids is alien to me, as a parent of a school age child with ASD and as an ex teacher. Exasperation and helplessness absolutely, but to resent a child? I've never experienced that and if it is the case that's really sad.

Schools are in a horrible position and can offer so little compared to what they know is actually needed, for many children. I wish the parents of those kids got to have 5 minutes in a room with every Secretary for Education from Michael Gove onwards. Bastards, the lot of them.

What percentage of pupil premium children do you have? How many with special needs (specifically cognition and learning or SEMH). I'm guessing not many... Is your part of Bucks fairly leafy? Can families support monetarily? The phrase ivory tower does inevitably come to mind. Lovely for you and your pupils but not the reality for the vast majority.

Not all schools are bad though I have a great deal of sympathy with what op is saying. The school where I work is well run with experienced teachers, lots of LSAs and good provision so they do still exist.

The school I work in is well ran with an empathetic and supportive SLT who are completely overworked. We have some amazing staff who go above and beyond and provide the best education they can. However, there are still problems due to budget cuts, particularly with SEND. There are problems with staff sickness and student attendance. It isn't chaos by any means but can be tricky.

I went to high school in the early, to mid 90s and it felt more chaotic in terms of behavior of some students, teachers weren't great at marking and feedback (presume lack of accountability). If kids pissed about in lessons the teacher just left them to it. Lessons were easier so if you were struggling you could get away with chatting all lesson, so less stressful.

Some of the new rigorous teaching methods make the climatebi tense for some kids now, teachers are much more accountable. The Give curriculum is inaccessible for many. Screen and vape addiction are huge distractions for some kids. We're trying everything and anything and it's exhausting and frustrating. Praying for a Labour govt and reinvestment in public services.

I teach in High Wycombe. There are leafy villages around but High Wycombe itself is not a very nice town! I teach both wealthy pupils and poor students. More than 50% of the pupils I teach are not white British and a large number have English as their second language. As you might imagine, the SEN pattern in a grammar school is different from that in a non-selective school (many of the SEN students that I teach have ASD and do not have barriers to accessing maths or have for example hearing aids, diabetes, obsessive compulsive disorders etc and again I tend not to need to make significant adjustments to my teaching). Rightly, we are less-well funded than other schools so I almost never have a TA in my lessons, there are 33 pupils in both my Year 8 groups and my classroom walls have not been painted in years and my carpet is in shreds! However, painted walls and nice carpets make no difference to my ability to teach or a pupil’s ability to learn, so I don’t mind.

In terms of behaviour, we are hugely helped by the fact that parents tend to be supportive of any sanctions that we give. However, the single most important thing behind good behaviour in any school is the behaviour policy put in place by the senior leadership team and they and the rest of the staff sticking to it. This is why there are multiple schools up and down the land even with highly deprived catchment areas which have phenomenal behaviour and we should never accept poor behaviour as being inevitable in a school. In my view poor behaviour in a school should primarily be blamed by poor decisions and actions by the senior leadership team.

We don’t get any significant amounts of money from parents. However, we also don’t really need more money that we are given by the state, because an outstanding education does not necessarily cost much more than a rubbish education. A great education is things like giving poor immigrant children from High Wycombe a chance at an A* at maths A-level by insisting upon the highest standards and direct instruction every lesson and giving them as much cultural capital as possible. These things are “values” and unlike painting a classroom wall they help a child and also unlike painting the wall of a classroom they are free.

So, yes, I am teaching in an “ivory tower” if you like, but there are many incredible schools in the country that achieve great results despite all the social problems that others have described. We should learn from and copy those schools.

@Pythag I agree there are good schools out there, but do you feel there is a system and the system creates these good schools or is it all a bit random/pot luck.

The biggest advantage i'd think a grammar school has is you've selected children that suit academics and GCSEs,whatever their wealth /SEN. You might be less fond of trying to teach the same maths to the bottom set of children that didnt get into grammar. The children who really are just going to get 2s and 3s however hard you and them try. You might think this system doesnt work. Why cant they do functional skills earlier.

It's great that there are so many teachers on this thread.

While you are here, could I ask what you think we should do?

I have had to stop sending my son to school and am hoping so much for a general election asap.

Do you think we should as MNHQ to invite the shadow education secretary along for a video call interview, to respond to this thread? Labour are writing their election manifesto right now and I feel as though this discussion needs a response in that.

Where is that info available? Not doubting just curious. Spent a few mins perusing the Eton website but can't find anything like that.

@Pythag I have just looked at the school info for one of grammar schools in High Wycombe. Very different demographics for disadvantaged pupils than many schools. This makes a huge difference. It would be interesting to know how many EAL pupils had tutoring to help them access the entrance exam

My daughters biggest complaint is supply teachers for GCSE subjects and disruptive classmates. Also all the non curricular stuff such as the transgender push which is nothing to do with getting a good grade in GCSEs.

I don’t think this year is so bad - or she’s given up complaining - but aggressive, disruptive classmates have been a big issue at certain points.

I don’t know the logistics of secondary school teaching, only what my children say about their experience but in early years we have a lot more SEN and behaviour issues than ever before. The last few cohorts have been much more challenging and we are doing many more EHCPs so that the children who need it can get support in mainstream but mainstream won’t be the best learning environment for quite a few of the children we’ve had recently.

And for the person asking how can average % for FSM be so high, statistics for 2021/22 show 4.2 million children in UK were living in poverty (29% of all children)

These schools will have parents who have the funding to pay for dyslexia assessments hence most of their SEN register will be kids with access arrangements/dsylexia. Mainstreams schools are teeming with children with undiagnosed dyslexia, who don't make it onto SEN support, because there is no public funding for dyslexia assessments. SEN numbers in different settings can be arbitrary: some schools will put in register with a diagnosis but no wave 3 support. Others don't. The numbers are very skewed but mainstreams are definitely teeming with undiagnosed and unmet needs.

Private schools will also charge extra for additional resources

I've reported your post with your suggestion that Bridget Phillipson is asked for a webchat. She has done some webchats here already so hopefully would be amendable to coming back.

You're right that an election year is a good time to put pressure on them!

Some schools are also selective by ideology.

See Michaela. It has the highest Progress 8 score in the country and is proud of its very draconian and strict rules and boundaries which are being emulated by many academy chains in disadvantaged areas (Dixon/Mercia). If you make it clear that ‘your child will be sanctioned for not having a pencil/looking out if the window’ , you will have parents supportive of this ideology or you will quickly weed out parents that aren't. Many schools can't say that, as their ideology is more inclusive and adjustments need to made for this students 🤷‍♀️

A great education is things like giving poor immigrant children from High Wycombe a chance at an A* at maths A-level by insisting upon the highest standards and direct instruction every lesson and giving them as much cultural capital as possible

It is worth remembering that grammar schools are far more likely to be staffed by experienced subject specialist teachers than the non-grammar schools around them. It's also worth remembering that poor children are far less likely to get a place at a grammar school. So the existence of grammar schools means that a poor child is less likely to get a chance at A* A-level maths because they are more likely to fail the 11+ and thus less likely to have a maths teacher.

Also worth remembering that EAL children are more likely to boost a school's GCSE results than drag them down.

@noblegiraffe if you look at the data I posted for one of the grammar schools in High Wycombe the number of FSM pupils is very small

Just to highlight the post @izzy2076 made.

hese schools will have parents who have the funding to pay for dyslexia assessments hence most of their SEN register will be kids with access arrangements/dsylexia. Mainstreams schools are teeming with children with undiagnosed dyslexia, who don't make it onto SEN support, because there is no public funding for dyslexia assessments. SEN numbers in different settings can be arbitrary: some schools will put in register with a diagnosis but no wave 3 support. Others don't. The numbers are very skewed but mainstreams are definitely teeming with undiagnosed and unmet needs.

This is absolutely the truth. I have approximately 20% of my class who are waiting for something with a long waiting list that will enable them to access support. We are finding that significant needs are highlighted in FS or early Y1 and the children are only getting funding and diagnoses in Y3/4. This is unacceptable.

White working class boys are the lowest achievers in our schools

I hear a lot about underfunding of SEN but there seems to be so many SEN needs now compared to the late 90s when I began teaching. I understand SEN schools have shut since then but even when I began teaching they were on the decline.

How much money is needed to restore education to late 90s levels? What else is needed?

I teach in the indie sector with a lot of SEN kids whose parents scrimp to have their children taught in an environment which helps them. It’s not easy by any stretch of the imagination as the needs are so diverse and budgets aren’t infinite, but it’s a hell of a lot better than what I see my friends doing in state ed.

State ed needs a holistic approach but I don’t know who could grasp the nettle and get it back on track.

The idea of inclusion is what closed a lot of special schools. David Blunkett was correct that there were children in special schools who could be accommodated in mainstream with some reasonable adjustments (e.g. wheelchair users).

But what happened was the idea of integrating some special school attending children into mainstream with additional support became closing special schools, putting them all into mainstream and then not providing the money needed for the additional support.

There are nowhere near enough places in special schools for children who need them, and there's nowhere near enough money and resources to accommodate them in mainstream.

I agree OP.

As well as the problems outlined on here (under-funding, staff shortages, Ofsted, crumbling buildings, locked toilets, draconian rules, no SEND places or support etc) in my view the other big issue is that the curriculum has become so outdated and unfit for today’s digital age that many young people are very discouraged and disillusioned. So this impacts on behaviour and engagement. Kids are repeatedly told that GCSEs are the be all and end all for a successful life and there just aren’t any opportunities for our young people in terms of practical skills/vocational skills. It’s an academic or nothing one-size-fits all system.

Most of what is taught (particularly in secondary school) is available online to kids upon opening their phones/google. So it has largely become a crazy situation of regurgitating information onto an exam paper. Made so much worse by Gove in 2014 with his Victorian curriculum 🙄 Our young people deserve better. They deserve an education that sets them up for the real world. They deserve to have some say and choice in their lives at lot earlier than age 18! The whole system needs an overhaul.

We need to reform the GCSE curriculum, or ditch it completely, no other country has high stakes testing at 16 & 18. GCSEs aren’t inclusive there’s far too much content they create huge stress for kids and teachers. I’d replace with a functional skills in English and maths and a broad curriculum with modular testing.

KS2 SATS are also ridiculous.

We also need to fix the system that means LA are responsible for SEN but unable to increase specialist services themselves.

Yes, LAs can't say 'we need a new special school to create more places' because LAs can't open new schools. They have to be free schools or academies.

https://www.tes.com/magazine/news/specialist-sector/free-schools-special-schools-wont-solve-send-places-crisis