Anyone here work in publishing?

[TonTonMacoute]

DS graduated summer last year and wants to work in publishing.

He has been working for the last year as an unpaid intern for a small one man publisher, so has been getting a lot of useful experience. He has been applying for jobs regularly all this time (don't know how many, but around a hundred) but he is just not getting any interviews at all. He had one, with an academic publisher and they really liked him but thought the job was a bit below his level of experience and that he would be bored.

We had a look at his cv and it looks pretty good, but what chance does he have if no one will even interview him?

Just wondered if there are just many fewer jobs in publishing since my day, I worked for several publishers in the 80s and 90s) or if anyone could throw any light on how he could boost his chances.

What sort of jobs is he applying for? Is he signed up to all the informal social networks - there’s Society of Young Publishers, BookMachine, there’s a group on FB called something like Publishing Hopefuls.

And - is he getting paid for his ‘intern’ position? If not…

Sorry - what I meant really was, he’s not working FT as an unpaid intern, is he? He has another paying job alongside volunteering?

There was a AMA thread on Mumsnet by a publisher. She had a lot of useful info, you could try there.

Publishing is such a niche job. I’m an author and any time a publishing job comes up every Facebook group I’m on (some with thousands on them), explodes! Is he looking at other jobs in the meantime?

Thanks all, some really helpful stuff here.

I think he's hoping for editorial (isn't everyone 🤷‍♀️) but is also interested in foreign Rights - he has good language skills). I also mentioned that he would have more chance of success in the less glamorous area of publishing, which he is fine with.

I know that in my day many of the entry level jobs were done by young women, I think because many of them involve quite a big secretarial element and (at the risk of sounding like the Pub Landlord) it was perhaps assumed that girls wouldn't mind that so much!?, but he wouldn't mind that at all and is quite organised.

I imagine that a lot of publishers are using freelancers much more and you need experience for that. I also imagine that due to that and to technical advances there are just a lot fewer jobs in the sector now - plus virtually every publisher is now part of Pearson.

Yes, he has been unpaid (he had means to make that possible for a while) but obviously this is not sustainable, and he is now starting to look for other jobs outside the industry.

He does feel demoralised but I think it's pretty much the same for all his age group. You just have to persevere!

It’s a tiny industry with not much earning potential. I once harboured notions of working in publishing but even back in the 80s and 90s when I graduated, the editorial (as opposed to sales and marketing) openings were mainly taken by trust-fund girls on pocket money salaries. In his position I’d be looking at something like digital marketing.

I work in publishing. Has he a specialism that he is interested in or has knowledge about? It's easier to get a start in, for example, science journals, than fiction.
If he is interested in editing or proofreading, he could do a short course, there are also courses on rights, etc as well.
Why do you think he was too experienced for the job that he was interviewed for, but not getting any other interviews? Does he have gaps he could fill, or maybe apply for something lower down that pays something and work his way up?
It is not a well-paid industry unless you are very lucky, it is however, an interesting and flexible job if you need it to be.

I'm an editor and the best advice I can give is to keep applying for any and all vacancies, and to make sure he's tailoring his application to each position. Having recruited a few times for entry-level positions the good applications stand out if they are differentiated to the job/role as so few people bother to do this.

Eg if the role is for a cookery publisher, talk about cookery books in the cover letter and interview, not your love of Stephen King.

If the role is for marketing, don't talk about your dream job being an editor.

I started in marketing and then my second role was in editorial and I worked my way up from there. Being 'inside' makes it much easier to get to your next stepping stone.

Well done on your DS's internship, it shows he is hard working

I would, however, echo a pp that it's an industry with very low earning potential and if I had my time again I'm not sure I'd go into it. I love a lot of it, but unlike other careers you aren't promoted when you are 'ready', you have to wait until someone else leaves. And many of my friends from the same degree/university earned a lot more than me very quickly. At 21 I was full of romantic notions of being fine earning very little 'for the love of it', by the time I got to 30 and wanted to buy a house and have children it was a different story.

Good luck to him!

@UpsilonPi

Why do you think he was too experienced for the job that he was interviewed for, but not getting any other interviews?

Well that's the problem, we really have no idea. I thought I might get some insight from people in the business. The publisher who interviewed him (a well known US academic publisher) really liked him but told him they thought he might feel underused, they have kept his details on file.

@planesandtrains

thanks, very useful post. I will pass on your comments.

I suspect that every job advert these just gets so many applications that there is an element of luck even being chosen for interview. I think understanding that does help a bit in terms of self esteem at least!

Isn't it awful that unpaid internships still exist? Jobs will only go to young people who get other financial support. It used to go on in the days when I worked in publishing (mid 80s to mid 90s). Some full time jobs were advertised quite blatantly as "no salary, applicants must have other income" meaning of course, only children of the very wealthy need apply. And the industry was full of them. And the rest of us earned a stupidly small amount of money. I don't suppose too much has changed.

Yes I do. I gave up trying to get into it as a graduate – I had a first class degree in English Lit and had been a bookseller since I was 16 including running events, buying, managing my own department etc, and I still couldn't get a sniff. I ended up working in marketing and communications in a different industry for the best part of a decade (financial services and then IT) and worked on building connections in the publishing industry which led to my current role as Head of Comms for an indie (which I ADORE and is relatively well-paid). For me the key was proving my worth and my transferable skills by succeeding in my field, and getting my name out there in my spare time.

Back in the 90s when I graduated and wanted to go into publishing all those jobs went to terribly nice gels with good family connections. The only ones that didn't were in sales. It's how I ended up working in libraries and information, as although you get your fair share of terribly nice gels and chaps you do also get some reasonably normal folk from ordinary backgrounds as well. I don't think anyone has suggested the Bookseller yet but they list job vacancies and are also a good way to keep up to date with publishing trends. Best of luck to him - he may need to think sideways for a bit!

Echoing the poster who says the cover letter is crucial - the CV is less important IMO. If he’s not getting interviews, perfecting the covering letter (it’s a skill that can be learned) is key.

If he’s looking for paid jobs outside publishing, great. He just needs to consider transferable skills - so for rights, a job utilising his languages, admin, and an element of selling? International sales has quite an overlap with rights in terms of understanding territories and customers etc, so an entry level job there can transition to rights quite easily.

He could look at getting involved with volunteer literary stuff like The Publishing Post, or set himself up as an Instagram book blogger or BookTok content creator. He could learn SEO and how to run FB ads, or any number of marketable things that could turn into a side hustle.

What he must not do is keep giving his labour away for free. He’s done enough of that now!

If he doesn’t already keep an eye on the IPG jobs board, that’s a great place for early career jobs.

As a new graduate I beat a lot of people with much more experience/training (many of the other applicants I met at the selection day had done Oxford Brookes' publishing masters or multiple internships) to get a trainee position with an educational publisher. One of the things that I felt that set me apart was that I recognised publishing is a business like any other - making a profit is priority. So many of the other applicants seemed to come at the whole thing from a very idealistic angle. Many have this idea of publishing as glamorous/creative/influential. But in reality it's all about balancing cost/quality/scheduling.

This is a great point too. So many grads are enthusiastic but unrealistic about the business side of things. If he’s ‘interning’ for a one-man band publisher, he should have a great opportunity to understand the finances of books. (And he should ask him to pay him something, even if it’s a token amount!)

Listen to @DatasCat 😬

If my DS wanted to get into publishing I’d try to talk him out of it. It’s still a rich kids job, mostly closed to those without connections.

One day he’ll hopefully have a family of his own and they’ll need somewhere to live…

Better jobs for those who love books include lawyer, TV editor, journalist…

@newrubylane this is also very insightful. Good luck to you in your career, you sound like someone I would love to work with.

The candidates who don't seem to be able to recognise publishing is a business are not very appealing. I have had to supervise work experience placements for people who made it clear they didn't want to work on certain authors or they only wanted to edit and didn't want to do any of the other things that go along with being an editor.

I think applicants often think that 'loving books' and 'being passionate' about them makes them unique, and they have to prove that they 'love books' more than their competitors. In publishing EVERYONE loves books, it's a baseline requirement/assumed, not the thing that will get you hired over someone else.

It is much rarer to find the person who knows the market, who understands we are a commercial business and is happy to pitch in with a process that has so many moving parts.

Good luck to your son. I hope he finds something of use in this thread.

@Feysriana I would dispute this though. I started my career in the late 00s and it already wasn't like that any more. It certainly isn't like that now.

I'm not saying nepotism never happens and it is dominated by middle class women, but I do not come from a wealthy background and neither have most of my colleagues through my career. And I've only worked for 'the top 4' firms

It is just so unbelievably competitive. If I advertise for an editorial assistant vacancy I get a minimum of 500 applicants.

@TonTonMacoute are you talking about book publishing? What about magazine publishing instead? DH started out in magazine publishing after graduating in the early 1990s, spent 20 years in the industry and never came across anyone who fitted the book publishing type of 'rich kids with other sources of income'.

But even then it took over 100 letters of application, a handful of interviews and an eventual offer as an editorial assistant on a trade journal. Took him about 10 years of a variety of jobs before he got into the field he really wanted.

I've worked in publishing, in editorial, for 25 years. It is a bit different now to how it's described above - the pay is still low for the skills required, but the big publishers are making a real effort to recruit from a wider range of backgrounds. The trust-fund girls are few and far between, I have a fairly average background (state school, though went to Oxbridge) and so do a lot of my colleagues.

It's great that your son has had some experience - a small publisher will be very different from working at one of the big houses, but I think he should have a had more of a range of opportunities there, trying a bit of everything. The real problem is numbers - we advertised an entry level position in my team last year and had hundreds of applicants. The cover letter is important - it's essential to ensure there are no typos! That instantly goes in the bin. Also, a love of books (as said above) is a requirement rather than a selling point. He could try going for a less glamorous role and then switching once in - look at Production or Rights, the person we eventually hired was already working for us in-house in a different team (not editorial) and demonstrated clearly why they'd like to switch over.

If I was being honest I'd probably advise against it, essentially because the pay is so bad and they expect a lot of you. They've boosted up the entry level pay but there's a real problem retaining people as progression is hard (often dead men's shoes). But good luck to him!

He will be up against recent graduates from well regarded MAs in publishing who would usually be head of the queue for jobs.

My dd was in same boat. She did unpaid intern whilst at uni (mostly wfh due to covid). then after graduating she did copy editor for an online company. Shite pay 18k self employed so no sick hols etc. she stuck it out for a year and also volunteered at a magazine doing admin (hoping for an in) this year she got a job writing for a local magazine (21k) she's basically trying to get as much experience as poss to make herself more employable.

I was about to ask if he was that committed he could do an MA. We also have some entry level and intern positions for POC - does he fit that criteria?

The easiest way to get into publishing otherwise is in one of the operational depts - IT, metadata specialisms, sales, production as mentioned. Much more fulfilling and better paid than editorial as well. I would echo someone above who talks about the importance of business skills and knowledge.

Publishers need to make money.

Has he got a scientific degree as well? Much easier in academic publishing with a scientific background.

Foreign languages will definitely be a plus. If an MA is a no go I would go hard on that and his work experience in the cover letter and big up an interest in foreign rights or production. That would make him look different from the MA grads.