Upper, middle, or working class?

[Greycatgingercat]

I was speaking to another parent at DD's nursery and she said that she was upper class. Her husband is a doctor and she does embroidery but mentioned that she also uses dr as her title. She's a lovely lady and we work in similar fields as I run a small business making children's cloths.

I'd never really spoken about class before this, so it prompted me to have a conversation with my mother. I'd consider myself working class but my mother would consider herself middle class, as her father was a head teacher yet she never worked after I was born so after my father left we relied on benefits.

The lady at DD's nursery is originally form Pakistan, but has lived in the UK for 7 years so I'm not sure if it's more of a cultural thing her telling me her class.

What class would you consider yourself as and what do you think makes someone a particular social class?

[newnewnewbuild]

Class is so nuanced and i do find it interesting. How easy is it to move classes?

I have a friend who has been brought up working class (like me). She is just coming to the end of her medicine degree, and she is engaged to a man who was brought up very middle class, who has a trust fund and a title in his family that is passed from generation to generation.

Does this mean once they marry she will no longer be working class? Or does she change class once she is officially a doctor?

My grandparents grew up on a council estate but worked hard in apprenticeships to better themselves, they accumulated some wealth through being frugal and owned a house outright with no mortgage in a very desirable village where they holidayed multiple times a year all over the world and always drove a nice car, were members of the golf club. Very well spoken. So did they at some point transition from working class to middle class?

For me, I consider myself working class. I live in a 4 bedroom house that we own, my husband and I both have degrees and work in "professional" jobs - but not doctors or lawyers etc. We dont have kids yet but when we do we'd never be able to afford to send them to private school so does this still make us working class or something else? It doesn't matter as I still consider us working class, but it is very nuanced.

[AdaColeman]

@katy1213
I know! Endless possibilities!

[Prokupatuscrakedatus]

Some of my ancestors were 'Leibeigene' (serfs) - but they could do embroidery.

[StarlightLady]

I was just thinking about this while l was giving the servant a good spanking for spilling the tea in the saucer when he poured it.

How is one to maintain standards in one’s chateau?

[shinynewapple2020]

@Ideasplease322

Have you tried the bbc class calculator- just a bit of fun

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

I don’t think it really works for single person households, but interesting to see the indicators used

I did that test and it said I was 'established middle class' giving indicators of having been to university and enjoying a wide range of cultural interests ..... I didn't answer yes to either of these things !

[AnotherEmma]

Bagelsandbrie
"I’ve done all sorts of jobs from beauty consultant to marketing manager. My dh works in senior administration. We aren’t well off. But - we own our house outright through inheritance. Does this mean anything?"

Of course it means something, for goodness' sake. You inherited money and don't have to worry about paying mortgage or rent. You have a significant asset which you could use to pay care home fees or leave to your children as inheritance. Given that home ownership is in itself a privilege that many can't afford (even with a mortgage), you are very well off. You might say that your income is low but it sounds as if you don't actually have to work, so that's probably a choice, and as you've "done all sorts of jobs" (including marketing manager which is a "middle class" kind of job) you probably could get one if you wanted to.

Class is not just about your own education level and income. It's also about that of your parents, because it will have had a big impact on your upbringing and the opportunities available to you.

I'm sorry but it does annoy me when people say "I'm not well off" (and it seems to happen a lot on mumsnet) when they are clearly better off than the vast majority of the population.

I think people should volunteer at a food bank or citizens advice and they'd soon change their tune!

[AnotherEmma]

@newnewnewbuild

Class is so nuanced and i do find it interesting. How easy is it to move classes?

I have a friend who has been brought up working class (like me). She is just coming to the end of her medicine degree, and she is engaged to a man who was brought up very middle class, who has a trust fund and a title in his family that is passed from generation to generation.

Does this mean once they marry she will no longer be working class? Or does she change class once she is officially a doctor?

My grandparents grew up on a council estate but worked hard in apprenticeships to better themselves, they accumulated some wealth through being frugal and owned a house outright with no mortgage in a very desirable village where they holidayed multiple times a year all over the world and always drove a nice car, were members of the golf club. Very well spoken. So did they at some point transition from working class to middle class?

For me, I consider myself working class. I live in a 4 bedroom house that we own, my husband and I both have degrees and work in "professional" jobs - but not doctors or lawyers etc. We dont have kids yet but when we do we'd never be able to afford to send them to private school so does this still make us working class or something else? It doesn't matter as I still consider us working class, but it is very nuanced.

This proves the point I just made.
You are not working class, for goodness sake.
Your grandparents were working class, but your parents were middle class and you are middle class.
What on earth makes you think that you and your friend were "brought up working class"? You both have degrees. You own your house. Are you trying to tell us that your parents weren't university educated, had minimum wage jobs or lived on benefits, and lived in social housing? I doubt it, based on what you've said about your grandparents.

[MollyButton]

I did the test too - and seem to have gone down a class since splitting with my EX.
Why not here? She could be a Pakistani upper class person.

What the American's would consider as working class and middle class is very different from here. Every country has different rules.
The OP's acquaintance was using a totally different set to the ones in England.

[Herja]

I'm frequently stumped by what class I am. There seems to be lots of people far, far clearer on class that I am on here; what class am I?

I was born on a travellers site, to a new age traveller living on dodgy benefits and agricultural labour. I lived on the road for a while with my heroin and alcohol addicted parents. Then we moved in with my grandparents, who took over my upbringing. They were a teacher and an academic, who lived in a large, expensive property in a good area. My mother remains a chronic heroin addict, but is also highly educated with a professional job. I had 2 children by my early twenties, but was also married to their older, professional, degree-educated father. I was only educated to GCSE level until very recently, I am currently a university student. I have brought my children up as a single parent on benefits after seperating from their father.

I'm thinking a wierd middle class/underclass hybrid? But what the fuck is that?

[faginssidekick]

What do you mean, she also uses dr as her title? Is she actually a dr?

[faginssidekick]

That bbbc calculator is weird, I put in chief executive and teacher for my social contacts, assets over half a million and I'm working class. All a load of bollocks

[iftherewereahorseyinthehouse]

I can safely say i have never got into a conversation about class with the nursery parents. Or the school parents. Or quite frankly my friends of fifteen plus years. Which makes me think this may not be strictly...I don't know, true?

[AnotherEmma]

@Herja

I'm frequently stumped by what class I am. There seems to be lots of people far, far clearer on class that I am on here; what class am I?

I was born on a travellers site, to a new age traveller living on dodgy benefits and agricultural labour. I lived on the road for a while with my heroin and alcohol addicted parents. Then we moved in with my grandparents, who took over my upbringing. They were a teacher and an academic, who lived in a large, expensive property in a good area. My mother remains a chronic heroin addict, but is also highly educated with a professional job. I had 2 children by my early twenties, but was also married to their older, professional, degree-educated father. I was only educated to GCSE level until very recently, I am currently a university student. I have brought my children up as a single parent on benefits after seperating from their father.

I'm thinking a wierd middle class/underclass hybrid? But what the fuck is that?

Lower middle class, I think, despite your early start in life, because your grandparents are firmly middle class and your mother is too because of her parents, education level and job. And you are middle class because your middle class grandparents brought you up and you're studying now.

It sounds like a difficult childhood and relationship with your parents - of course that can happen whatever class you are

[wizzywig]

As a Pakistani, among the ones I know, status, your position in society is seen to be important. It can dictate who you marry, your kids marry.

[hopefulhalf]

have a friend who has been brought up working class (like me). She is just coming to the end of her medicine degree, and she is engaged to a man who was brought up very middle class, who has a trust fund and a title in his family that is passed from generation to generation.

Does this mean once they marry she will no longer be working class? Or does she change class once she is officially a doctor?

Yes I think once you are a doctor or any other professional (lawyer, teacher, accountant) you are basically middle class and are very likely to speak RP.

[hopefulhalf]

Oh and the acid test for middle classness ?
Do you make a packed lunch rather than eat institutional food? (upper classes had institutional food at boarding school, lower class are likely to have had free school meals or been fed in the army/ prison, only the truely middle class will have never eaten such stuff) Love the christmas present thing too- although I think the Royals do iy on christmas eve !

[MollyButton]

Oh and re- the Christmas presents, a certain West India Podcast host - in his family they put off opening the present or even mentioning them until some one asks. This tortures the youngest members of the family who usually break first. They once got to Tea time or later (maybe Supper?). But they still are not Upper class I would guess.

[Reedwarbler]

That bbc calculator is utter crap. I have tried answering with different answers but it always comes up with the same result. Don't waste your time.

[Youandmealwaysandforever]

I think class is far more important to those who consider themselves middle class.
No-one else cares.

[newnewnewbuild]

@anotheremma - my mum's parents were comfortable through being frugal and saving as much as possible yes but no my DM didn't go to university and until she was in her 50s she didnt earn much above minimum wage. I've heard many stories from her about how her and my dad struggled when me and my sister were young. My dad works in a customer service type role and has done for 30 years or more and my mum has always worked in accounts clerk type roles.

I was the first in my family to go to uni, my mum and dad actually asked me more than once if I was certain I definitely wanted to go as it was so expensive.

My parents only began to be more comfortable when my mum was very very ill a few years ago and had a critical illness payout.

My dads side are a different story, no money on that side at all and none of them have been to uni.

Also I'd like to clarify on my last post - when I said we own our home I meant to say with a mortgage but looking back I missed that off. Our mortgage is for just under 90% of the value of the house.

I'm not trying to be difficult at all, I'm just trying to illustrate that class isnt easy to categorise, and like I said I find it interesting. I've never spoken about any of this with friends before and I find it strange that the woman referenced in the OP brought it up at the school gate

[hopefulhalf]

think class is far more important to those who consider themselves middle class.
No-one else cares.

This is so true both the upper class and lower class think there are only 2 classes in the UK. Us and them.

[Pipandmum]

Money doesn't equal class, its background, though you can elevate from working to middle, I dont think you can become upper unless you are born in to it.
I would consider Princess Diana as upper class. And yet she worked as a nursery assistant before she married Prince Charles. But her Dad was an Earl, therefore upper class.
My husband was a lawyer, his mum was a hairdresser and dad a builder, neither did more than O levels. So you could say they were working and my husband became middle. But if our son became a multimillionaire (oh I wish), he won't be anything other than middle class.
A doctor is firmly middle class. But maybe she is considered upper class in her home country from her family background and society. She may have an aristocratic name and background. Taking the title of doctor is odd, though that may be customary for her.

[Grimbot]

What a strange thing for her to have said.

Class is such a strange thing. My husband considers himself working class as both his parents left school at 14 and had blue collar jones. However he went to a red brick university and is now a high level professional. I consider myself middle class. I grew up in an affluent area, parents were professionals. Before I had our children I was an admin assistant earning about x5 less than my DH but he still considers me middle class and himself working class.

It’s not something I tend to discuss with most people though and certainly not someone at nursery!

[DialSquare]

To quote Micky Flanagan, I'm working class with middle class trappings!

[peakotter]

Everyone should read the post by @raspberrymuffin
Class isn’t a thing until it affects you, then you realise it is. And of course no-one talks about it, just like no-one admits to casual racist stereotyping yet it still happens.

I grew up mixed, with one parent upper-upper-middle (of course not upper class!) and the other very working class. I an very aware of class all the time unfortunately.

I can highly recommend Kate Fox’s “watching the English” for a good summary of class. Her observations on owning matching furniture were spot on.