Paying other people's debts via prepayment meters

[PavingSlabRed]

I am a landlord and our tenant has just moved out.

The former tenant had racked up debts of £4000 on the electric and £7000 on the gas, which it transpires were being paid off weekly following installation of prepayment meters.

When tenant moved out, I contacted energy provider to have supply put in my name. They did this, but they did not remove the debts from the prepayment meters.
To cut a long story short, it transpires that my payments on the meters were paying off our tenant's debts, unbeknown to me.

Although I have eventually got this sorted and the money refunded, I just wonder how many people are tricked into paying debts for old customers by energy providers? The energy provider did not raise the issue that you have to go through all the screens on the prepayment when you take over supply to ensure there is no debt being collected for former occupant. I imagine îs in their interests to trick customers into paying debts which have been run up by previous occupants.

I feel that this has all the hallmarks of the big energy providers exploiting the vulnerable group in society who cannot get credit meters for fuel.

I literally only realised there was an issue when the Meters were swallowing up money even though no one was living at property. It would be easy never to realise that you are paying much more than you should be.

Can't help thinking it is a very deliberate strategy for energy providers to not ensure that prepayment meters are not cleared of debt when new customer takes over supply.

That doesn’t happen If you have a smart meter

That's about ten years of typical domestic consumption. How on earth is that possible?

You're probably right about people paying off the debts of others. Understanding bills and how the meter should work requires a degree of organisation, literacy and numeracy that may be beyond the inexperienced or people with chaotic lives or other personal challenges.

I've had to deal with a number of energy company fuck ups over the years and it requires time and persistence that not everyone has the time or energy for.

That doesn’t happen If you have a smart meter

Ha ha, if only.

Of course it shouldn't, but there has been numerous reports of billing errors.

How on earth can you run up 7k in gas?!

That's terrible OP, I work for a big six and when they closed your tenants account they should have sent an engineer out to clear the debt from both meters. It's called a decom -recom appointment. Though I expect you know that now it's all resolved.

Sorry you had such a bad experience.

I used to be a senior manager in a prepayment department for one of the big utility companies.

The answer is, not as often as people claim it's not their debt. 9 times out of 10 claims that the debt isnt theirs is incorrect. Even when ofgem look at it.

Your case is clear cut.

It shouldn't happen at all. The meter should be cleared when moving to another name. The problem is, depending on what meter you have it's not an easy process.

The old style meters are cleared by 'messages'. The company sends a message and when you take the card/key to be topped up, the key/card should pick the message up. When you outfit in the meter its cleared.

Unfortunately the companies that run these systems are not great. Siemens for example have a big failure rate of delivering these messages.

It's possible the person you spoke to just didnt do their job it's also possible it was a technology failure. Also if you didn't top up for a while then the message is also lost.

In our department we started giving customers instructions and what to press to check if their is debt on the meter and tell them to check after they topped up. At least then if it didnt work, the customer would know asap.

It's a much quicker process with smart meters

Theres no need for a decom/recom unless the actual process isnt working. Companies dont want to pay someone to go out when it can be done remotely.

Of course it shouldn't, but there has been numerous reports of billing errors.

Smart meters are far more clear when telling customers about debt. The IHD, should have a clear debt option so you can view outstanding debt. So while it doesnt always work, the customer can easily and clearly see it.

Yeah, it should have been sorted. Did they tell you why it hadnt happened? Like pp said, it could be someone not doing their job or it could have been something not working.

Did they end up sending an engineer out?

I had this I realised something was up in the summer and the meter was guzzling gas... I’d paid over £300 of the previous tenants debt despite giving meter readings etc when I moved in. Took a fair while to get refunded, was a complete pain in the arse to get my money back. The company were as much use as a chocolate teapot and like yourself I think they know what they’re doing and don’t care whose paying the debt as long as they’re getting the money.

Kirkman Wed 05-Feb-20 06:49:13Yeah, it should have been sorted. Did they tell you why it hadnt happened? Like pp said, it could be someone not doing their job or it could have been something not working.Did they end up sending an engineer out?

I queried with the energy provider (nPower) why it had happened. They basically said that it happens when new customers are unfamiliar with prepayment meters and don't know to check for debt on the meter when they take over supply. I took that to mean they put the blame at the door of the new customer. This I think is unfair. Why are customers expected to make sure they are not being charged for other people's debts?

To the PP who asked "Did they send an engineer to sort it out?, no , they certainly didn't!

How I sorted it out eventually was making numerous phone calls to nPower who eventually sent codes to me to take to a local shop. I took the electricity key and gas card to the local shop, who fed in the codes i had been supplied by nPower. This then resulted in the money I had unknowingly paid off my former tenant's debts being refunded onto the key and card. What a palava! Hours of stress and phone calls.

Although I was able to sort it out, I am very tenacious and it took dogged determination to work out how to solve the problem. I can quite easily imagine that many might be paying off other's debts through prepayment meters and would not necessarily ever even know.

Yes,7K on gas and 4K on electric is an extraordinary amount to owe. Tenant lived there 7 years. I wonder if they just failed to put supply in their name at outset of tenancy and the debts had spiralled by the time the energy provider caught up with them.

I once started to pay off the debt of a previous tenant. They had only been there a year and had run up £600. It was a similar issue with prepayment meter and British Gas took several phone calls.

@FabbyChix that’s only helpful if you can get smart meters. I can’t as where they are placed they can’t communicate with each other.

@PavingSlabRed I agree that is ridiculous. The debt is the previous tenants and that is who should be paying it.

Just had this with Spark - it has taken 3 months to resolve. Nightmare

I used to work for another utility and if there was a query about tenants debts we would ask the landlord to forward us a copy of the tenancy agreement stating whether it was the landlord or tenant was responsible for the bill.

Those meters are evil things, levying a tax on the poor and vulnerable for being poor and vulnerable. I used a work as a housing support worker. I had clients in tiny and well-insulated flats paying the same amount on their meters as I paid by direct debit for my huge and draughty semi. And they usually ended up colder than me anyway.

Ah, nPower. What a surprise.

They were the supplier when we moved into our current house but I switched straight away as it was the expensive standard tariff.

They kept sending incorrect bills of over £100 for about 2 weeks supply even though I'd sent them meter readings and I knew that I owed them far less.

I was in a cycle of me phoning/emailing them telling them what the readings were and I would pay straight away on receipt of a correct bill while they got more and more aggressive in their attempts to recover the 'debt' threatening all sorts of consequences.

As per my previous post, it takes persistence to not just give up and pay for a quiet life, but I eventually got a correct bill out of them, for about £14.

MrsMoastyToasty Wed 05-Feb-20 08:09:20 I used to work for another utility and if there was a query about tenants debts we would ask the landlord to forward us a copy of the tenancy agreement stating whether it was the landlord or tenant was responsible for the bill

There wasn't any doubt from nPower who was responsible for the debt. I had rung up and put electric and gas supplies in my name when the tenant moved out. nPower central computer records showed no debt owed by me. However, that didn't stop them still collecting old tenant;'s debt via the prepayment meter. When I made the first few calls, they kept saying there is no debt on the account at all. I had to eventually stand in front of both meters with key and card installed while nPower guided me over the phone how to access all of the different screens. This proved that I was paying £6 per week off tenant's electricity debt and 30% of all payments of tenant's gas debt. I think that nPower deliberately fail to ensure meters are cleared to get their money back. Clearly they don't care if it is not the person who owes it. A very cynical approach I feel towards the poorest in society who have no choice but to use these prepayment meters.

If they expected you to check for debts they should have told you to go to the shop use the code and all that.

Then told you how to check it.

And engineer would only come if several attempts failed.

Kirkman Wed 05-Feb-20 09:16:51 If they expected you to check for debts they should have told you to go to the shop use the code and all that.Then told you how to check it.And engineer would only come if several attempts failed.

In the end, it became apparent that the debts can be seen on the meters themselves if you feed in the key and card and know which screens to access. However, you would never know to look for debts deeply concealed in the different screens of the meter unless you were already well acquainted with nPower prepayment meters.

Exactly. That's what I am saying. They should have told you, you would need to check the debt has been cleared and how to do it.

I do that for any customer where charges are being cleared. How would you know unless someone told you.

The meters aren't n power meters as such. Theres just certain brands, makes, models.

Yup. Done exactly the same here. After a few months, Phoned supplier to ask why £10 on the card only resulted in £7 on the meter...

Then when we moved we got a letter from npower telling us they were our supplier so we set up a direct debit etc started yo pay them then discovered they werent actually supplying us at all, just totally fraudulently demanding money. Avoided them like the plague ever since.

Yep mine is Npower too! It has started to take an amount again off for debt recently when I top up, several phone calls later they’ve assured me I have no debt on the meter but still it’s taking some off, less than a pound but even so? They are saying it’s standing charges but I’m not convinced. Going to switch suppliers and I’m betting they’ll say I have a debt then, which I don’t. It’s a complete nightmare tbh 😩

If you contact the energy welfare charity Citrus energy (not a power provider) they can help you as landlord on this situation. They can also help the person in the house owner or tenant who is in this situation. Also, if the power company messrs up, they can try to get a goodwill payment. They are based in Scotland but cover the UK.

There's certainly no incentive for nPower to not happily take the repayment for someone else's debts in these situations. So yes, they leave it up to the occupier (or landlord in a vacant property) to even know that it can be a problem.

Doubtless there are a lot of people who have no idea. You don't know what you don't know. They just think their electricity and gas is expensive.