Colleague who won’t retire but also won’t train

[Putthepanback]

WWYD?

She’s got markedly slower over the last few years (think taking 3 seconds to press each button on the phone when dialling a number kind of thing). We spoken in very casual conversation about retirement and she is very much of the “oooo I’d have nothing to do with my time” school of thought.

We are having a big problem now though as our software is all being changed and we are retraining on the new stuff over the next few weeks.

She got very flustered in the training this morning and left after an hour as she said the trainer was going too fast. We’ve made arrangements for her to have 1 on 1 training instead. She is completely adverse to any kind of change at all. Very negative and “oh it won’t work it works fine now”.

I have to admit I snapped at her today because she’d spent all morning complaining how busy she was but wouldn’t accept any help. I really needed some figures by 3pm which I asked her for this morning. It was easily a 10 minute job for any other member of staff. At 2.30 I walked past and she had only just started. At 2.50 I realised she was counting them up (the columns) with her finger on the spreadsheet and then doing the sums on paper. I very gently said “oh x did you know if you just grab that little cross and drag it across you can add them like this”

She snapped back at me that she knows what she’s doing and she still had 10 minutes.

I had to leave the room before I snapped back at her. She’s been on excel training at least 3 times but just doesn’t retain the info.

What the hell do you do in this situation?! I’m not her manager, just one step above her and they are loathe to do anything and just whisper that she’ll have to retire soon surely! But from what she says she has no intention of going anywhere

[needsahouseboy]

As a manager I’d be addressing the training issues. Putting her in 1-2-1 training and then after that I’d be assessing her performance and if she continued to not get give her one more chance at training and asking for any reasons on why she can’t do the job. Send her to OH and cover that base. Then I’d be performance reviewing her and probably putting her on capability and if she still doesn’t improve be sending her for a final review meeting.

[LolaSmiles]

It's attitude rather than age in my experience, but it's also very easy for those close to retirement, who had lower house prices, who've got generally better pension conditions, have had better more automatic pay progression etc to decide to be bloody minded (which passes the work to others). It's much harder to be like that if you're in a precarious position.

I had a colleague (we'll call her Sandra) refused to do even the most simple things that have been a normal and reasonable part of teaching for ages. It was anything from not marking to a reasonable deadline (never used to be like this), to refusing to put data on the system (she didn't do computers), to crying bullying and stress when people offered to help her meet the deadline (nobody should speak to her as she still has 12 hours remaining to do all the work required and put the data on, which of course won't be there because she didn't do computers). If there was a way to complain or be awkward, Sandra would find a way and that usually meant behaving in a way that caused massive workload issues for everyone else.

[AlexaAmbidextra]

but it's also very easy for those close to retirement, who had lower house prices, who've got generally better pension conditions, have had better more automatic pay progression etc to decide to be bloody minded (which passes the work to others).

😴😴😴. Oh ffs don’t start that. It is totally irrelevant.

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

I don't think you have to engage in generational warfare to point out that it's easier for people with financial and job security to not perform certain parts of their job (sometimes they'll be entirely right and justified because what they've been asked to do is unreasonable, but it's still easier for them). I saw it time and time again in academia - senior, very secure staff simply refusing to do things and talking a big talk about how they wouldn't bow to the evil demands of management - but actually that work just got pushed onto junior, often precariously employed colleagues who didn't have the same option of just digging their heels in.

[LolaSmiles]

It is relevant Alexa.

If you're sitting pretty, fairly comfortable, got your own house, not too worried about what the future holds then it becomes a lot easier to be a PITA than if you've not got that sort of security. It's much easier to keep taking the pay check whilst seeing how much shit you can dump on other people, how much of your own work you can get away with not doing and so on because the impact is going to be minimal.

Whereas someone who is 23/24, doing same sort of job, but worse conditions, worse pension scheme, has a rolling contract that's precarious and so on is going to end up feeling the pressure to pick up the slack because they want to save for a house, haven't got the same security.

The two together make for an unhealthy workplace pairing.

The people like in the OP Post I know who've been awkward on training, always full of excuses, want to protest it wasn't how it used to be done and so on were all people who were well set up, openly doing very little because their DP had retired or was about to, or had gone part time to keep a bit of cash coming in but it didn't matter either way, had one foot out the door on various ventures but couldn't possibly do the proper training at work.

I've worked with a range of people where there are competency issues, but this overall "approaching retirement so going to refuse training etc" attitude does exist.

[Loopytiles]

It’s a massive generalisation that older colleagues have housing or financial security and a good pension and could afford not to work.

[darkcloudsandrainstorms]

There hopefully will come a time when ageist threads such as these are banned and deleted. It is totally offensive.

[SnuggyBuggy]

It's not strictly age, it's attitude and length of time spent in job in my experience. I guess age comes into it as a 19 isn't going to have been in their job for 2 decades obviously.

[Butterymuffin]

The WASPI women pensions thread contained some of that but also ageism in the other direction about how supposedly easy younger women had it, many of them claim benefits instead of working etc. It cuts both ways.

[LolaSmiles]

lisaSimpsonsbff
But some of that security does come from a different era.

I look at our NQTs coming in at 21/22, with masses of debt, huge house prices and so on, rolling contracts due to money, things that I was paid a leadership point for are increasingly being suggested as "experience" where they feel they have to take on more to try and get their contracts renewed.

Meanwhile the Sandras of the world are sat at the top of UPS, arguing they couldn't possibly mark their mocks in a reasonable time frame and they can't put their data into Excel (fairly standard for well over a decade) because they "don't do computers". They get asked for a % for a mock score in the system, but 3 days late, after much chasing, produce a scrappy bit of paper with first names and a GCSE Grade (because it's clearly impossible to give a percentage on the deadline), then they sigh and mutter when asked for the correct information. All this leaves a colleague with less time to meet their own deadlines. They complain about having to do training and then after some training simply reuse to follow even the most basic of steps, and that's before mentioning that they really should be doing a little more than the 23 year old as part of being paid £10,000+ more a year.

[LolaSmiles]

Loopytiles
Of course not every older person will have that, but then as I've said it's about attitude, not age.

There will be many excellent older workers. Some of my colleagues are choosing to teach secondary past retirement age. They're great!
As other posters have said they know many workers who upskill and keep trained later in their careers.

But if someone was going to develop an attitude of "boohoo, I don't see why I should train... I don't want to use Excel... I want to do it my way... I want to do very little and dump my work on others" then it's much easier to take that view from a position of security (which you get by being close to retirement, you have your own home, not living paycheck to paycheck).

Id be very surprised if the people with this entitled and obnoxious attitude at work were the people facing retirement with no security.

[SistersOfMerci]

Just commenting so I can read this later properly.

I have exactly the same issue at the moment.

[DorisDay88]

Op I totally understand where you're coming from and your feeling of frustration but I'd like to tell you what happened in a similar situation to me about 6 years ago.
I was line managing a lady in her early 60's, always dressed smartly, could do her job and tried her best to embrace any new technology etc. Over a shortish passage of time I noticed a change in her, subtle at first and not particularly noticeable as I saw her everyday but looking back I wish I'd noticed things earlier.
During this period we all had a new boss who herself was under pressure, our boss was young and had just returned from maternity leave and needed to prove herself. To explain we worked in admin in the Fire Service and anyone who wasn't a 'uniformed' officer was looked down on no matter what their qualifications were, none of the admin staff under this particular CFO were good enough - lots of bullying going on especially with the female staff.
The older lady started to come into work looking a bit unkempt, nothing obvious to others maybe but I noticed it. She started taking longer and longer to do day to day tasks. Her conversations were a little odd.
Over time although I tried everything I could think of to help this older lady my line manager took me to task, wasn't doing my job apparently and she decided to take over the line management.
Our boss kept on and on and on at this older lady, time management, courses, etc etc, it was cruel and unrelenting until one day she didn't come into work
Her brother rang me, she'd given him my number. She'd had a complete breakdown, was in a psychiatric hospital.
To cut a long story short she was suffering from complete anxiety, didn't think she'd ever be afford to retire, lots of worries in her personal life including being the sole carer for her 89 year old mother. She was in hospital for six months.
Turned out she had a very good widows pension, she was given a lump sum on retirement herself and all turned out sort of ok in the end. Apart from my female boss who was then bullied by the CFO and went off sick herself.
What I'm saying is, are there any reasons this lady is behaving as she is, do you have a good HR department with counselling available? Maybe she's entitled to a good redundancy payout and doesn't realise? Has she got huge worries at home? If someone has worked for somewhere for a while and suddenly can't hack it anymore maybe it's worth looking a bit deeper just to see if there's a reason why rather than write her off as being past it?

[PontinPlace]

It is very frustrating working with people who are not tech savvy. It is part of the modern world, you have to get with the programme.

Having said that, I work with colleagues in their mid thirties who aren't remotely tech savvy and it's hugely annoying.

[PontinPlace]

I have members on my team who are only in their 50s but they can’t do the most basic things on a computer like cutting and pasting or underlining text.

OK but I don't see how the problem is going to get worse, given most people who are my age (30) will have grown up using technology as a matter of course and will definitely be able to do this kind of thing.

[OooErMissus]

Having said that, I work with colleagues in their mid thirties who aren't remotely tech savvy and it's hugely annoying.

If you work in a tech environment, then yes, I imagine it's hugely annoying.

I work in an office. We use Microsoft. Would I describe myself as 'tech savvy'?

Absolutely, categorically not - as I imagine that requires serious skills, qualifications and training.

Do I know my way around the basic packages, and can use them as needed for my job?

Yes, very much so.

How 'tech savvy' do you actually expect people to be, to do most (non-tech) jobs...?

[LolaSmiles]

DorisDay88
Those sorts of background situations are exactly for managers to sort out, and to do it in a way that doesn't involve dumping stuff on other people or other people having to continually pick up the slack or have their ability to do their jobs hindered

I've had some flexibility built into my timetable as I'm close to maternity leave with a difficult pregnancy. Sometimes we all need a bit of support, but that shouldn't mean someone else having their job compromised.

Ultimately, refusing to train, not meeting the basics of the job and other people having to pick up the slack is a mix of a poor attitude and ineffective management

[ControversialFerret]

Being tech savvy is only an issue if it's essential to the job.

Lots of firms have roles which can be adapted so that anything other than the most simple tech isn't a problem.

This is about working with individuals - of any age - and trying to see what their skills are and whether those talents can add value somewhere else in your firm. However in order to make that happen effectively the individual needs to be open minded and willing to work with you.

[GummyGoddess]

Those who think that nobody should be let go because of poor performance should really read one of my favourite books. It's called incompetence by Rob Grant, dark humour and perfect to read for this situation.

[BobbinThreadbare123]

This isn't necessarily an age thing at all. One of my colleagues is early 20s - he has all the necessary schooling and a degree, but cannot use Excel, Word, Outlook or anything like that properly. He will not learn anything new and he puts no effort in. I've had to force myself to stop picking up his slack, as it directly affects me. I basically direct his time but am annoyingly not his line manager, so I can't do anything about it. His manager never seems to be able to...

[PontinPlace]

How 'tech savvy' do you actually expect people to be, to do most (non-tech) jobs...?

In my workplace, I have colleagues who can't do very basic things like copy and paste, use a simple formula on Excel or pick up a CRM database quickly.

Those are essential to the vast majority of office jobs that I can think of. You have to be able to pick up software pacakages quickly. I learned an accounting package in less than a week when I started my job - I had to.

[BarbaraofSeville]

Most office jobs require a working knowledge of Microsoft Office, which would include copy and paste, using Word to write letters, use templates, formatting, basic Excel functions, Outlook for emailing etc. I wouldn't count that as 'tech savvy'. It's the sort of stuff you'd do at home anyway for writing letters, household budgeting etc.

I'd also expect someone to be able to use the help function if they don't know how to do something, and pick it up fairly quickly if offered formal training.

DP has always done manual or driving jobs and has only ever used a laptop to surf the internet, but last year one of his jobs required him to start doing some office work, and he did pick Excel functions up fairly quickly despite having zero experience or training as computers were in their infancy when he was at school.

[Paddy1234]

It's not an age issue - the brightest techie that I came across was nearing retirement age - it's a competency issue.
It needs to be highlighted and hopefully the lady can be moved as OP said to a more suitable position.
Actually it annoys me that there was a potential position and she dismissed it.
I feel your pain.

[Defenestrator]

Oh I worked with someone like this. She was mid fifties and I would assess that she had been in admin all her life and had never actually been taught how to use a computer but had picked it up as she went along. I say this as I used to be an NVQ assessor and have met many people like this over my career.

We changed to Office 2010 from Office 2003 (this is how long ago this was) and everyone who needed it had half a day conversion training. She came back from that saying she needed two weeks full time training just to get the basics. I knew she was struggling and it was very clear she needed more training but I wasn't allowed to manage her at all (I was supposed to be her supervisor).

She worked three days a week and would only do half of her weekly allocation of work 'because she was only part time'. I allocated the work to her taking into account her hours and her competence and she still wouldn't complete anything because she 'was only part time'. I raised the problems with this individual's incompetence with my manager on numerous occasions but was told off for being ageist. The colleague was only three years older than me! I was early fifties, she was mid fifties.

I worked with her for four months and despite spending more than half my day one to one with her providing support and training, she did not complete one single piece of work in that time. Not one. So whoever said upthread that someone should just step in and finish off the work has no idea what they are talking about. How are you supposed to know which bit she's going to leave undone this week?

I left the team at that point (because I raised a grievance about my manager among other things). Ten months later I heard that she was still unable to complete a simple task such as making up a file for each new service user (her job). Over a year in post and couldn't be relied on.

My assessment of the whole situation is that she hadn't learnt anything new for 10 years an had lost the capacity to learn. And nobody helped her or made her do it. It was awful as we had a ridiculously high workload and couldn't afford to carry anyone. She was shunted into my team to get her out of the way and the managers wouldn't admit they'd made a mistake. I was blamed for her incompetence.

The performance of my erstwhile team took a massive nose dive after I left and all sorts of data breaches happened and were covered up. Other colleagues also left because of the workload and they ended up with this lady and some apprentices (cheap) instead of experienced, competent band 3 administrators. The admin team was later disbanded due to incompetence and the specialist work absorbed into general teams. The specialist service and service users suffered.

Don't underestimate the dire effects an incompetent administrator can have in an organisation. This being the NHS in my case mismanaged it appallingly and should have been fined for the breaches of patient confidentiality. All down to someone who would not upgrade skills and poor management not managing it.

I feel for you!

[PontinPlace]

We changed to Office 2010 from Office 2003 (this is how long ago this was) and everyone who needed it had half a day conversion training

That's bats even for the half day really, it wasn't even that different! Should have been intuitive.