Colleague who won’t retire but also won’t train

[Putthepanback]

WWYD?

She’s got markedly slower over the last few years (think taking 3 seconds to press each button on the phone when dialling a number kind of thing). We spoken in very casual conversation about retirement and she is very much of the “oooo I’d have nothing to do with my time” school of thought.

We are having a big problem now though as our software is all being changed and we are retraining on the new stuff over the next few weeks.

She got very flustered in the training this morning and left after an hour as she said the trainer was going too fast. We’ve made arrangements for her to have 1 on 1 training instead. She is completely adverse to any kind of change at all. Very negative and “oh it won’t work it works fine now”.

I have to admit I snapped at her today because she’d spent all morning complaining how busy she was but wouldn’t accept any help. I really needed some figures by 3pm which I asked her for this morning. It was easily a 10 minute job for any other member of staff. At 2.30 I walked past and she had only just started. At 2.50 I realised she was counting them up (the columns) with her finger on the spreadsheet and then doing the sums on paper. I very gently said “oh x did you know if you just grab that little cross and drag it across you can add them like this”

She snapped back at me that she knows what she’s doing and she still had 10 minutes.

I had to leave the room before I snapped back at her. She’s been on excel training at least 3 times but just doesn’t retain the info.

What the hell do you do in this situation?! I’m not her manager, just one step above her and they are loathe to do anything and just whisper that she’ll have to retire soon surely! But from what she says she has no intention of going anywhere

[Cruddles]

I had this situation twice in the last 8 years. One was a person who struggled to keep up with the pace of office change. The other didn't want to change. Both were made redundant when the opportunity arose, retirement was forced upon them

[coffeeagogo]

This is about capability. It's insulting to older workers to say that they can't learn new tasks and software. My mother is her late 70s and still works full time as an accountant and has had to learn several new software packages as well as adapt to email and all the other technical changes over the last few years.
This lady is making a choice not to engage with the training and that is unacceptable. I agree OP needs to be redirecting colleagues rather than covering up her mistakes and escalating issues to her manager.

[Teateaandmoretea]

I think tbh that competency issues due to age after maybe 40 years of generally good service need to be addressed in a different way from competency issues in younger staff arising from eg hangovers and other lifestyle choices.

Hmmm okay then .

[Span1elsRock]

I'd say there is a fair chance she will flounder when the new software comes in.

You don't need to single her out but you equally don't have to enable her lack of ability.

[GrandmaSteglitszch]

OP, you need to speak to your manager about the effect this is having on you.
It's up to management to address problems with the person or/and to arrange the work so that you are not disadvantaged by someone else.

I am in the same age group as this person and I would be mortified if I realised I was making things difficult for others at work.

Employers have to make 'reasonable adjustments' for all sorts of things but there comes a point where adjustments or/and allowances can no longer be made.

[Fuma]

Well obviously if an issue is flagged you need to respond to it and with younger staff in particular it may well be the first time that such flagging has occurred - I should have made it clearer that I'm alive to that - sorry. A good employer is often best placed to join the dots as it were and put appropriate measures in.

Also I'm aware that certain issues are more likely to come up with younger staff eg unsuitable housing (yes really - even for full time employees ime that's often a concern, sadly). I think what I'm saying though is that as people go through life there are different issues that commonly arrive at different times and cognitive function is one of those which unlike the commonly experienced lifestyle choices isn't going to go away or be grown out of.

[Fuma]

.. and so the people saying that you should treat a 66 plus year old woman the same as a twenty something making mistakes are wrong.

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

How is unsuitable housing a 'lifestyle choice'? You're so dismissive of the issues that could be facing a younger worker and also, at the same time, seem to be suggesting that it's inevitable that an older worker will be incompetent so everyone should just be nice about it. I don't think you realise how discriminatory you're being, at both ends of the age spectrum!

[carlywurly]

We had a similar situation. We tried a kind, supportive approach initially. Lots of notice of and support with change. Lots of training. The employee didn't respond. They became quite unpleasant to deal with.

We started capability procedures. They pushed back. It ended in disciplinary, several months being signed off and an acas early conciliation agreement to pay in lieu of statutory notice.

We're still taking this as a win as they wanted redundancy (which didn't apply) and we could have potentially had the issue another ten years. They were top of the pay band but effectively contributing the least.

[stucknoue]

It sounds like she needs a performance review and the relevant steps put in place. My guess is once formally she's had warnings (along side the support you are already offering) she will choose to retire rather than be fired. Warning it takes about 6 months but once the performance management kicks in an offer of 3 months pay may entice her to leave sooner

[Soontobe60]

How old is she? Is she past state retirement age? Does your company have any kind of contract system in which people over a certain age have to have their contracts renewed yearly?

Fuck off! All of those posting that she should be got rid of will also one day be her age, or actually a lot older now the NPA has risen to almost 70. Or you may be women who find the menopause difficult and suffer in a similar way. So what's the solution? Just sack all those over 60 and throw them to the wolves because you can't tolerate them not being as sharp or fast as someone thirty years younger.
She may well be completely aware that she's not as competent as you expect her to be, but also petrified that you'll sack her as soon as you can.
For women of her (my) generation, technology has changed totally beyond our wildest imagination. It's hard to understand our lack of skill at times, but try to magi e your employers suddenly decide to only communicate in a foreign language. You're expected to speak, read and write in that language with little training, or training that's so quick that you can't take it in.
Have patience, have tolerance but most of all have empathy.

[Fuma]

Obviously unsuitable housing isn't a lifestyle choice and nowhere have I said that. What I said was that different issues tend to crop up at different stages in people's lives and ime sadly many young people are unsuitably housed (eg possible issues include inadequate sleep, even difficulty maintaining hygiene etc) and I am aware that this can impact on work performance just as ageing can.

[Soontobe60]

@carlywurly

We're still taking this as a win as they wanted redundancy (which didn't apply) and we could have potentially had the issue another ten years.

A win!!! How is this a win? You've managed out someone who probably hasn't got a cat in hells chance of another job at their age. Getting rid of someone on capability is never a win situation.

[Fuma]

But also time and again the most frequently encountered performance difficulty with younger employees is just going out too much and burning the candle at both ends. Which is different from a 67 year old woman with forty years under her belt who doesn't understand spreadsheet functions.

[Grumpyperson]

Did any of you see the Twitter thread about Sainsburys employing someone with dementia, even though they got to the stage where they couldn't really do the job anymore?

Maybe the OP's employer is well aware of her colleague's shortcomings, but have chosen to keep her on regardless. And maybe the OP needs to not micromanage. If she prefers to do the numbers on paper, let her do them on paper. The paper could have been scanned and emailed to your colleagues. Did you think of that?

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Soontobe60, I'm in my late 50s. I don't recognise the picture you're painting. Word processors were in use in the office where I worked back in the 80s and personal computers were just starting to make an appearance on workstations. By the time I went back to work in the early 00s after a career break, everybody from the most senior managers down to the people in the post room had to be able to use a desktop PC for email, Word, Excel, using the organisation's website, etc etc. Training freely available, lots of support. This was in the public sector. I work with a woman of nearly 70 whose IT skills are top notch and who has a very can do approach to learning how to do new things.

Very ageist and sexist of you to imply that woman of our age can't cope with technology.

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

The paper could have been scanned and emailed to your colleagues. Did you think of that?

Seriously?

[carlywurly]

@Soontobe60 believe me that age is the least of the reasons they might not get another job. We have employees well into their 70s. Age isn't a career limiting factor in any way. Unwillingness to learn or contribute is.

You can't just tolerate abysmal attitude and performance just because someone is approaching retirement age. Particularly when in reality there is no retirement age anymore.

[MintyMabel]

No idea, but I do have the same problem with a 19 year old in my office!

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

The whole point of using spreadsheets is so that data can be analysed and manipulated. If you circulate a spreadsheet you make it easy for the recipient. If you send a picture of a scrap of paper you don't.

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

If you start scanning scraps of paper and emailing the scans around then you're going to look
a) like you're taking the piss out of your colleague in a cruel and public way OR
b) like you yourself are less than competent

[LemonPrism]

Well you need to raise it with someone higher because she needs to retrain or be dismissed.

[Putthepanback]

We had a similar situation. We tried a kind, supportive approach initially. Lots of notice of and support with change. Lots of training. The employee didn't respond. They became quite unpleasant to deal with

It’s getting to that point now. Not so much unpleasant but very negative. Lots of mumbling under her breath etc.

I’m not 100% sure of her she, closer to 70 than 65 at a guess.

We all work as a team, her manager is also my manager but within our team we have different roles/grades. It’s actually her job to send out the figures I asked for but I took it over a few months ago as she was struggling and asked me to. She’s the only one with the figures so not something I could ask someone else to do.

And no. 100% no. I can not scan a piece of handwritten paper and disseminate it to other teams. We would be a laughing stock.

[leghairdontcare]

She’s the only one with the figures so not something I could ask someone else to do

Ask her to send you the raw data every month and you can do the 10 minute job rather than endure watching her counting up spreadsheet with her finger.

And no. 100% no. I can not scan a piece of handwritten paper and disseminate it to other teams. We would be a laughing stock.

Definitely.

[Purpleartichoke]

We recently had a long term employee start to falter. She was dying, but wanted her o keep working as long as she could. My bosses found a new role for her that utilized the skills she had built over her long career, but that had looser deadlines so if she was too sick to work on any given day it was ok. The fact that the company handled the situation so well, told each and every employee that we are actually valued.