What can be done to get fathers more equally involved in childcare?

[KateMumsnet]

Hello there

Maria Miller, the Minister for Women and Equalities, has asked us what MNers think could be done to encourage fathers to be more equally involved in childcare and education.  

As you might know, the government proposes to change the way that parental leave works - after the first six weeks, working families can now choose which parent uses a 'joint' parental leave allowance.  They can split it between both parents either consecutively or concurrently, or choose to have either the father or the mother stay at home exclusively, for the duration of the leave.

What do you think? Will shared parental leave have an effect on how families divide childcare? And what else could help to encourage fathers to become more involved in caring for their children?  What about education - are fathers as involved as they could be? Please do tell us your thoughts - and any great ideas you might have - here on the thread.

[ATouchOfStuffing]

Interesting that the OP says 'equally involved in childcare and education' and yet we are mostly all talking about childcare and the dad actually looking after/seeing the children, not the education by fathers' side at all. I think that says a great deal. My ex has chosen not to see DD and no one can make him so he has opted out of that process altogether. Although I think this shows he has nothing of value to impart to DD anyway

[allnewtaketwo]

Boohoo I did not contradict myself. I made references to a very specific group of people I was describing, by way of example. I made the point that they illustrate the point that when women do have the choice, they will often choose to be the main caregiver. I also made the point that women who are not in this position, I feel, often use the excuse that they have to stay at home, or work part time, whereas in reality, when given the choice, they are likely to do so anyway. Hence I used both groups to make one point. Clearly this is too difficult for you to understand . Or you'd just prefer to believe that women dont have a choice and so refuse to acknowledge a different perspective. That's much easier, of course.

[allnewtaketwo]

Exoticfruits I totally agree with your posts, this does indeed reflect the majority view IMO

Wrt the women who end up with men/exes completely unwilling to help with childcare (as opposed to work making that difficult) it does beg the question why you chose them as a suitable father for children.

[Wishihadabs]

DH and I are equally involved in childcare (ok perhaps it's 60/40 if I am strictly honest)
. After my 1st maternity leave I returned ft (only job available) we would certainly have got DH to take the 2nd 6 months had that option been open to us asI ounearned him at that point. He did at least 50% of pick ups/drop offs. After 6 months I went pt again he did 50% of the drop offs. After my second maternity leave I was made redundant from that job. The only job I could find was ft , again DH did 50%.

A year later DH had a period of not working for about 18m (his choice he hated his job by then). Because I had kept working I was able to support him and he SAH during this time they both started school and nursery and he was able to start his own business.

We now both work 3 days/week OTH and are at home for 2 days each. It mystifies me why more couples don't share more equally. I think the split leave is a great idea and I think discussions about childcare and return to work ought to be part of antenatal classes, with perhaps examples of how to make it work. I can't stand the perception that the children are one partner's responsibility. DH and I have had this pattern of work for about 2 years now. Most of the other parents have now got the hang that I do Mon, tues DH Thursday, Friday and we rarely get calls on our days at work. If there is a problem on weds we take strict turns try to take leave or swap shifts or something. But as you might imagine emergencies that occur on Wednesdays aren't all that common so not a big deal really.

[exoticfruits]

This is the first time that I have realised that there were any advantages to being a widow. When I was widowed with a baby I made the immediate decision to be at home full time until he was 5 years, and everyone was too busy being nice to me to pass opinions. Had I been married I would have had to go back to work. I actually had the luxury of freedom of choice and had a wonderful time not having to be a wage earner. If women really had a proper choice then many would choose to be the full time carer. People make it sound as if it is onerous - it is the best thing that I have ever done.
Even if I had to go back to work it would have been part time so that I could spend as much time as possible with my child.
I really don't understand why paid employment is the 'be all and end all' to life- rather than the thing that you do to enable you to have a life.

[exoticfruits]

I think that you should discuss childcare and return to work before you even get pregnant. So many people seem to discuss it afterwards and have wildly different expectations. With DH2 I said beforehand that if we could afford it I wanted to give DC2 and DC3 exactly what DC 1 had, 5 years at home with me. I have never regretted the decision, it gave me far more than money could buy.

[Wishihadabs]

Well exotic fruits I can only comment on our situation. Now the dcs are school age the fact that we both have careers and get a chance to be at the school gates makes us the envy of many couples who have choosen the more "traditional" split of roles.

I am very sorry for your loss that must have been awful. I am sure I would have felt differently in your situation.

[Wishihadabs]

Well said EF. Agree this should be discussed before dcs.

[exoticfruits]

That is my point- we are all different - some of us find childcare more exciting than any career and there is nothing wrong in that. I wouldn't expect everyone to feel the same.

[exoticfruits]

Antenatal classes are far too late to discuss it! Part of the problem is that it is never discussed- just assumed. DH assumed I would want to work- you don't know unless you ask.

[Wishihadabs]

Agreed. Before I got pg for the 1st time I witnessed women at work talking about how useless their dps were with their children. I swore then that my DH would be aabsolutely capable of LOOKING AFTER HIS OWN CHILDREN without detailed instructions.

Sorry to shout but this whole "men are so hopless bless them" mentality makes me angry. It's so sexist, as sexist as suggesting women can't drive or become surgeons and we don't tolerate that sexual stereotyping in 2013.

I agree that most women are better suited to caring for under 3s than most men. In the same way most men find reverse parking naturally easier than most women. However once the dcs are school/nursery age that difference disappears and the problem is then that the couple have got themselves in to the situation that the women is the main carer.

In the same way that most women can learn to reverse park perfectly well, most men can learn how to care for small children (I think this must have been essential in evolutionary terms). In our society couples who ignore this do so at their peril as I said above by the time the youngest is nursery/reception age the female partner's choices have vastly reduced.

[exoticfruits]

You can do it all- it is a question of not wanting to. As a widow you are forced into it and I found it was perfectly simple to get out a power drill and put a shelf up, check the car for oil etc. There was no one to say that I wasn't doing it well and take over. I don't think that it is men not doing it- it is generally men not doing it to the woman's specification and they take over. When you share childcare you have to accept that you do it your way and they do it their way- and why not? Children adapt.

[Wishihadabs]

Yes and as a society we are all poorer for it. IMO

[Xenia]

exotic is right. A lot of it is about standing back. Don't assume because you're female you have the best wayon the planet to deal with that baby or put on its nappy. If you allow for the fact your nanny, mother, husband might be better than you and you can learn from them or simply that there are two ways to do things and neither is right then it works much better. In other words some mothers need to learn humility instead of thinking they are some brilliant God of the home who is the only person on the planet to be let near their precious little darling.

[exoticfruits]

My DH used to dress the babies in a most peculiar way - I would think 'how can he possibly put x with y?' and 'I hope no one thinks I was responsible' , my mother once dressed one in his pyjamas because she didn't realise they were pyjamas - but if they are doing the childcare you leave them to it. It undermines it all if you come in and say to DH 'why on earth did you do that' and interfere and change them. You have to leave well alone. My guess is that most women don't- they want equal childcare as 'senior' parent.

[Dahlen]

I really hate this attitude about "why did you choose such a poor father in the first place."

We DID discuss children and childcare for 18 months before TTC, which was 6 years after we got together in what was, until I became pregnant, a very equal relationship in which I was the higher earner. The plan was that X would be the primary carer.

It wasn't until I got pregnant that things changed and he showed his true colours.

I'm not saying my situation is representative of the masses, but a quick trawl through the relationships board or the lone parents board will quickly reveal that I am far from atypical. Most women don't deliberately choose feckless bastards. What happens is that the male's behaviour changes when the woman becomes vulnerable or the man falls out of love. Sometimes there are warning signs for this, sometimes there aren't, and sometimes it can take years before they become apparent.

To classify human beings as being obviously a 'bad un' that you should avoid at all costs is woefully naive, simplistic and smacks of smugness and victim blaming.

[allnewtaketwo]

People's behavious might change when life changing events happen, but their underlying value systems tend to be constant. A caring loving person doesn't turn into a feckless b** just because his partner becomes pg. I would argue he had questionable values in the first place

[VinegarDrinker]

I don't think anyone has said paid work is the be all and end all, just that it should be equally accessible to both men and women.

Personally I hugely enjoy both being at work and at home. When I do too much of either, I do a bad job of it.

I don't think anyone should be forced to leave their young children and go out to work, but I didn't and don't struggle with any guilt because I do - especially as most of the time I'm at work I know DS is with my DH, strengthening their relationship and having a whale of a time.

I don't personally subscribe to the "women are more natural caregivers" argument, regardless of whether they are under 3 or not.

[exoticfruits]

I don't personally subscribe to the "women are more natural caregivers" argument, regardless of whether they are under 3 or not

Neither do I -some men and women are cut out for it and some men and women are not.
Even when I could have done it I have chosen part time work. I would choose part time work without children if I could possibly manage it financially. It gives you time to pursue interests and volunteer in the community.

[Dahlen]

allnewtakestwo then you must clearly live in an alternative universe in which people occupy nice little boxes with tidy edges.

In my line of work I constantly come across people who have shocked others with their 'out of character' behaviour.

I would argue that you don't understand nearly as much about people as you like to believe.

[Booyhoo]

it is so depressing to see people still buying into all that shite about women being better caregivers and women wanting to more than the men. no-one is starting it from a level playing field and until we do then we cant possibly say that women are naturally better at it than men.

[flatmum]

I'll tell you what you do. You get up, say hello to the children, give them a kiss, pass on any specific instructions to the father that he may not be aware of about who/what/where/with which bit of equipment for each child. Then you go out for the day. Do this at regular intervals from birth (expressing I necessary)

That's been my approach and it has worked well. Email instructions and calendars/spreadsheets on the fridge also good as avoids the (often) male tendency to us the "well you never told me!" card.

[Wishihadabs]

I did say most women and most men I am well aware there are exceptions on both sides.

[allnewtaketwo]

Behaviours can change, but character doesn't. Nor do underlying value systems

[MoreBeta]

To be fair, I do see a lot of women diving in to 'take charge' where their DCs are concerned and a man stood helplessly by.

Point is that none of us knew how to look after a baby when our first DC arrived and we learned as we went along. If a man goes back to work soon after the birth then he never gets chance to learn and the mother inevitably just takes over. It isn't always so cut and dried that men are useless at childcare - they just never get chance in some cases.

That said, some men are professionally and deliberately useless with childcare and really dont want to bother to learn. That is just annoying and something that mothers needs to call their men out on.