What can be done to get fathers more equally involved in childcare?

[KateMumsnet]

Hello there

Maria Miller, the Minister for Women and Equalities, has asked us what MNers think could be done to encourage fathers to be more equally involved in childcare and education.

As you might know, the government proposes to change the way that parental leave works - after the first six weeks, working families can now choose which parent uses a 'joint' parental leave allowance. They can split it between both parents either consecutively or concurrently, or choose to have either the father or the mother stay at home exclusively, for the duration of the leave.

What do you think? Will shared parental leave have an effect on how families divide childcare? And what else could help to encourage fathers to become more involved in caring for their children? What about education - are fathers as involved as they could be? Please do tell us your thoughts - and any great ideas you might have - here on the thread.

I don't see many men clamouring to change the status quo, and for the ones that do, like sleepyheads DH, it is really tough. The exception might be in the early years, but generally, in my experience, once the DCs are at school, men are happy to assume the woman will take on the lion's share of the childcare because, frankly, school hours are a PITA to work a career around.

I think it's interesting that this is seen as a 'women and equality' issue. Why is it not a men's issue? Why aren't men protesting about not seeing their kids enough, about not being able to take them to the GP, or go to parents' evenings? Or, perhaps they are, and I just haven't noticed.

The Maria Miller who thinks page 3 is alright? come back when you have a proper Minister for Equality, thanks.

The right to flexible working and the ability to change it over time. DH and I both work part time. This was fine for my first maternity leave, he worked full time then went down to part time when I returned to work. For my second maternity leave he had a boss who got on well with Dh and was prepared to be flexible and was quite happy to increase his hours back to fulltime while I was on maternity leave. By the time I had DC3 his boss had changed to someone who stuck to the rules. Dh put in his application to increase his hours and they hummed and hawed and delayed making a decision. Eventually I made DH go in and kick ass and he pointed out that if he didn't get to work full time for the year I was on maternity leave then he would have to ask for 6 months of paternity leave and they would have to pay him SPP AND give him his childcare vouchers (I earn more than him so financially it made more sense for him to be on parental leave come 6 months). By the end of the day they had found the money to increase his hours to full time for a year.

Now, obviously having the right to have access to parental leave was useful for us, even if Dh didn't actually use it. But it also helped that I am the main earner and that DH is quite good at this kind of bargaining (we did have to do a lot of reading to find out what our rights were, they are less than you think). The trouble was that once you negotiate your hours down it is hard to negotiate them back up and even if you did it potentially could mean your company could refuse another application to reduce hours later. I suspect most people would not want to have to live on a part time wage plus SMP when they have a small baby (as opposed to one fulltime wage) so it is easier to make just one of a couple take the part time hit if you are planning more than one child. So then one person becomes the one who is responsible for childcare.

And then they start school... There is no way DH and I can cover all the school holidays even if we never take a holiday at the same time (and we have no family in the country to cover the gap). So, yet another system that pushes a parent into being at home all the time.

This is tragic. a thread asking women how to get men to do more childcare full of women saying it is up to women to choose men who will do an equal share of childcare.

Why is the problem of men doing a bigger share of childcare a woman's problem to solve?

If the minister wants to know why men don't do more childcare why doesn't she ask them what would make it easier for them to spend more time with their kids.

This totally conforms to the stereotype of it being a wonan's job to sort out childcare issues.

Employers need to make their maternity & paternity offer more equal. My partner works for a large company that offers a good maternity scheme but then only the minimum gov requirements for paternity.

Organisations should not be able to discriminate between the sexes in this way. If employers had to make men an offer equal to that for women it would make shared care much easier & more commonplace.

Ha, this is ironic. Parental leave is such a small part (albeit a very important part of childcare) With the proposed changes to the childcare voucher scheme coming, effectively what you are doing is ensuring one parent may not be able to work, therefore, problem solved!

I am very lucky to have a dh who sees it as a joint responsibility. However, I feel it is up to the individual couple who takes on that roll. I find the government trying to enforce shared childcare patronising.

It isn't the woman's problem to solve - but it isn't sensible to start living with a man who has widely different expectations from yours. If you give them a wide berth then it doesn't have to be your problem. I don't see why you need the government to help you make things equal - you just make it clear from the very first moment that the house isn't woman's work and that you are not his mother. Too many women just take on the role and by the time they have a baby, it is entrenched. You make sure they are washing up, ironing, shopping, cleaning toilets from day1 and if they don't then surely they are not the man for you? Why would anyone take on the role of unpaid housekeeper, merely because they are female?
I think parental leave is neither here nor there- it is flexible working time after that which is important.
Getting him to look after the child is simple- you just put your arrangements on the calendar- point out that you will be out and leave him to it. My DSs used to end up in a pretty bizarre selection of clothes but apart from that they were fine- and you just have to get home and leave them in the clothes and not take over. Part if the problem is that women want men to do their bit - but as controlled by them. If they are equal parents then you have to just leave well alone and let them get on with it. A lot of the problem in the 'equality' is that women still make themselves the senior partner and household and childcare tasks are supposed to be done 'her' way. They often sigh in exasperation and take over if they are not- rather than closing their eyes and leaving them to it.
You won't get equality until you change attitudes. Many men are away on business and leave the mother at home with the children- yet if you get a thread with a mother asking if she should have 2 nights away and that her DH has time off any will be looking after the DCs you can be sure that more than half the posters will come in saying they couldn't possibly do this- and many of those will say that OP shouldn't do this. I managed this, they waved me off at the airport for a week- I didn't have to leave a single instruction DH managed fine, and so did they.
The problem with this sort if thread is that you are only getting a small minority of women on it- it gives a very skewed picture. You are not getting the women who are 'wearing' their babies for at least a year, who think that the mother/baby bond is so important that you can't leave them to the man even for a couple of hours. By the time they do let the man do a fair share it is too late- he is used to leaving it to her, he is used to being the 'extra' child who works under instruction.

TBH the issue is that men at the top of business (and most other organisations) nearly all have a SAHM at home looking after their DCs so when it comes to making decisions concerning staffing and pay and conditions and flexibility guess what?

They assume every other man has a SAHM at home as well.

Business finds it so much easier to just ignore the family/home life of their employees and demand that employees be available 24/7 without question. It really is coded in to the DNA of most business decison making now that employees will drop everything to be at work depending on what the business needs and no flexibility the other way. Indeed it has got so bad that some employees are now expected to be on the work premises or on call at home but not actually paid until they are needed at a moments notice.

There are so many people unemployed that business know that they can replace anyone that doesn't or can't live with that 'mobile phone always on' and available 24/7 type of work life.

exoticfruits I agree with much of your post, especially about women wanting things done their way - you see it all over MN all the time, Dads doing things just fine but not exactly the way the Mum would do it, therefore get patronised or criticised.

However, I don't think conflating parenting styles with gender roles is helpful. We co-slept, breastfed to toddlerhood, used slings etc but I don't see that has anything to do with excluding the Dad. The only difference when I was at work was DS had bottles. DS was perfectly able to cope with a few differences, likewise when he went to nursery.

Re parental leave. I agree it is a very short period, but I do think the roles set out in the first year or so become very entrenched and difficult to change. This is certainly my experience with several of my friends who preach equal parenting, but definitely see themselves as the primary parent.

As a high earning single parnent who lost my CB when married couples with significantly greater income than mine kept theirs I think MM and her government care F**k all about equality.

They are just hoping to find some more cynical and cheap ploys to win back votes.

And why should it be a womens job to tell you how we can get fathers to do more?

A lot of it is down to expectations, which are difficult to change. I definitely support the plans to be able to split maternity/paternity leave. Perhaps also it would be good to introduce a set number of days that parents can take off to cover childcare issues or times when their children are sick, but arrange it in such a way that it implies the burden should be shared. Shit for single parents, but then this argument isn't about that.

I agree with elastamum too above - why ask us? (sorry male posters!) - it would be interesting to see what kind of response this query had if it was put to dads specifically, on a more male-dominated forum. The first people asked about this issue are mums - that's where the whole problem starts, assuming that mums are the ones who would be able to help with this!

It isn't the parenting style as such-it is the general attitude that goes with it. Dad could wear the sling-you can express milk and go out-your baby will survive quite happily with the father for 2 hours!

It is how you are at the start that sets the pattern.

The best analogy I can think of is when I was 12yrs I went camping for a weekend with a group. I had never been camping before and was very exicted-cooking was going to be the highlight. In our tent 2 girls took charge, wouldn't let us near. We had arguments and one of the 'cooks' cried- we then felt mean because she was living in a children's home and so didn't have a lot going for her. We let them get on with it completely-they were happy the whole weekend. I would imagine that if we had been there longer they would have got fed up and then expected us to take turns-where upon the reaction would most likely have been 'sod that-you wanted it-you do it'! I suppose we might still have been keen enough to have a go, but the one thing for absolute sure is that we would have expected them to remove themselves and there would be no way that we were going to do it their way, or as they told us to do it! We were just as capable-we did not want or need supervision.

I see housework and child care in the same light. It is all new-the woman wants it and does it. She then gets fed up with doing it all ,but she still wants to be in charge. A floor needs to be washed her way, to her standard-the child needs to to be dressed in certain clothes-cooked for in her way etc etc.
I'm not surprised there is conflict-if he is going to do it then just let him get on with it. My first reaction if someone doesn't like my ironing is to say 'well you do it'! If they want me to iron something for them I will do it my way-they can take it or leave it-but the one thing they can't have is me making an effort to do it their way. I am not their domestic servant. If they want that they can send out the ironing and pay for it.

It is attitudes you need to change before anything else. The woman does not need to delegate-she is the equal partner.

excited even!

Lunar, so you married up like most women? Your exam results were not good enough to be a doctor. That is the norm. Even successful women tend to try to marry up. They may be on £60k but they marry the man on £100k etc etc. That is starting to change but as long as your husband earns less it is rare you go part time and he stays full time. I earned 10x my children's father so we both worked full time. If he had earned £10m and I £20k they in most couples anyway I would probably have ceased work.

Certainly we discussed childcare before we married and as we knew I would earn more he suggested if we couldn't find a nanny he would stop work. In fact we did find childcare so we both worked full time.

Are women on this thread bringing up boys to think they and their wives will take equal decisions over these issues? I hope so.

i want to see something done about the fact that a NRP can opt out of providing/organising or paying for childcare for their children if they wish leaving the PWC either becoming/remaining unemployed or facing massive childcare costs for full childcare of which they should only be 50% responsible for.

I think the point about workplace expectations is very true for us - DH works full time (although earns less than me) and I work part time - he didn't want to reduce his hours whereas I did, although I know it is unusual for the higher earner to drop their hours, but it works for us.

When one of the kids is off sick we generally take it in turns to stay at home with them, unless one of us has something we can't miss at work on 'our' turn.

Difference is, he is always asked 'why can't your DW do it' when he gets the time off (unpaid or using annual leave) and I am always met with surprise when I tell my work he is at home with a sick child as apparently 'they need their mum' and asked whether I feel bad not being there. His boss is a man, mine a woman.

He has never been asked who is looking after his children when he is at work.

He has never been asked how he manages to juggle looking working full time with being a daddy.

He has never been told he is 'brave' going back to work when he has a little baby at home.

He has never had people tell him that he must feel guilty working when he has a family.

I have had all of the above comments, many times - ALL from women.

Good job I married a decent human being who isn't a sexist - he gets very cross at the above and in fact recently put in a request for flexible working to ensure he didn't have to extend his working day when the office increased the opening hours, as he wouldn't be able to do the childcare run if he did. He got it in the end, but they were gobsmacked a man had asked in the first place and took ages working out whether they could agree it or not. Mainly due to the fact they kept coming back to check, again, that I really couldn't do it and it really was him that had to as I don't think they believed him (my hours don't fit with childcare very well).

Start incorporating childcare costs into post-separation settlements, including those organised through the CSA.

When families break down and the children go to live with the mother (usually) the father benefits from pretty much 24/7 'free' childcare. Being expected to contribute towards that or actually provide practical care in lieu instead, sends a very clear message and one that will trickle down into families that are not separated.

Dahlen - yes or even better a 50/50 time with each parent unless a court agrees otherwise or parents agree otherwise and whether both parents like it or not.

Yes good points by Kirsty. The secret for many of us is not marrying a sexist man. They must be avoided like the plague.

50/50 with each parents would be the ideal-but that really would set the cat among the pigeons! The women would not like it!

I think it's been proven that 50/50 isn't great for children anyway. I'd like to see NRPs having responsibility for childcare too. Although with any separation situation I worry for victims of abuse, an exception in law is often inadequate in these cases too as a lot of abuse isn't obvious, even to victims.

exotic which women do you speak on behalf of?

We did it by swapping roles. Over a decade ago we were both working long hours with 3 pre-school children and a nanny. We decided that one of us should stop working and age, career and other personal circumstances made it obvious that I should. At the time and after letting the nanny go I worked out that we were £15 a day worse off, but then I wasn't having to work a 10 or 11 hour day.

So, my wife has continued her career and I do all the domestic stuff (bar the ironing, which we both don't really bother with until we run out of presentable clothing).

exotic which women do you speak on behalf of?

Reading MN threads on step parenting-it is quite obvious many would hate it-especially if there is a step mother!

so it is the women of MN you speak for?