What can be done to get fathers more equally involved in childcare?

[KateMumsnet]

Hello there

Maria Miller, the Minister for Women and Equalities, has asked us what MNers think could be done to encourage fathers to be more equally involved in childcare and education.  

As you might know, the government proposes to change the way that parental leave works - after the first six weeks, working families can now choose which parent uses a 'joint' parental leave allowance.  They can split it between both parents either consecutively or concurrently, or choose to have either the father or the mother stay at home exclusively, for the duration of the leave.

What do you think? Will shared parental leave have an effect on how families divide childcare? And what else could help to encourage fathers to become more involved in caring for their children?  What about education - are fathers as involved as they could be? Please do tell us your thoughts - and any great ideas you might have - here on the thread.

[exoticfruits]

I just said so.
I would say they are a pretty good cross section-as good as any other.

[exoticfruits]

Many of them wouldn't even do weekend visits if they could get away with it.

[Booyhoo]

you didn't say.

would you say that the posts on MN are an accurate representation of all women who are raising children in a separate home from the children's father? or are they just the posts from women who are unhappy with their situation for whatever reason and are posting for advice/support?

[ATouchOfStuffing]

Maybe from a slightly different point of view but as a single mum who hasn't seen a penny from DD's father since October, I think the Govt. needs to do an awareness campaign, maybe an advertisement, to show that men in the pub boasting about how they 'got out of paying' for their offspring are actually costing the taxpayer money, and should not be encouraged.

Men should be shunned for walking out on a family and deciding not to keep in touch with their own children. It seems men peddle the idea of it being 'her indoors' driving them away. Really, some men see an escape route and take it. This shouldn't be a point of pride and should be harder to do. It takes two to tango!

IME men don't have a problem with the father not being involved, but are very quick to judge single mothers on their child rearing and the cost they impose on society.

Thankfully I don't rely on benefits, and hope to never have to, but I think I am simply very lucky in my situation.

[ATouchOfStuffing]

*NB - DD's father is living with his new g.f who pays her rent for both of them. He decided to 'quit' his job 2 months after the CSA caught up to him. He is apparently claiming benefits, but because he has never spoken to the CSA (hangs up on them etc) they were not aware of this and therefore I was supposed to call them to tell them, which is why I haven't yet seen my measly £5 per week...

Benefits office need to have a checklist and ASK about whether the man has a Court Order to pay CSA. If they lie, there should be a fine.

[exoticfruits]

would you say that the posts on MN are an accurate representation of all women who are raising children in a separate home from the children's father? or are they just the posts from women who are unhappy with their situation for whatever reason and are posting for advice/support?

I am not going by the OP-I go by all the hundreds of replies-and I am one of the loan voices who points out that fathers are equal parents. They get very heated. I can only assume that you don't read them. I would put money on most women not wanting their DCs in another home for 50% of the time.(and a lot more than that if a step mother is putting their DC to bed etc)

[Booyhoo]

well you havent come across any of my posts or OPs then. and i am a MNer. so you dont speak on behalf of me. you also dont speak on behalf of the friends i have who are constantly trying to get their children's fathers to step up and share the childcare responsibility with them. i think if you are basing your statement on what you have read on MN then you aren't basing it at all on what 'the women' would want.

[allnewtaketwo]

I agree with exoticfruits, I think it would be a minority or women who would really want their ex to have the children 50% or more of the time

[allnewtaketwo]

Following from xenia's points, I'd add that even in cases where the woman earns as much as or more than the man, it is generally the case that the woman wants to be doing the school run, work part time and spend more time with the children. I see this daily at DS's school. The mothers are mainly well educated professionally qualified woman with earning capacity at least equalling their partner. Yet a great many of them have chosen to work part time, or give up their high flying careers. These arent women who had to do this due to the cost of childcare. These women had a choice. I think it illustrates quite well that women choose to take on the main caring role when given the choice

[VinegarDrinker]

Why does a woman choosing to work PT mean her husband or partner wouldn't also like to? I don't see me working PT as "choosing to take on the main carer role".

Of course it isn't always financially viable to both work PT but given how many people can afford to live on one income, there must be plenty more out there who could afford to live on 2 PT incomes.

[VinegarDrinker]

I see so many threads on here with a SAHM and working partner who works such long hours he barely sees the children. That surely can't make anyone happy in the long run? Are these men all in jobs where they absolutely cannot cut their hours at all?

[allnewtaketwo]

Clearly no reason at all, DH and I both work flexibly and share care equally. I'm very happy to do this and so is he. I like having my financial independence. But clearly a lot of women, even those who have the choice, don't value that very highly and prefer to have very clear separate roles, traditionally female/male roles, in their own families, and thus be financially dependent on their partner.

I'm describing what I see. These women's partners can afford to work part time. However the women I'm talking of genuinely want to be the one at the school gate every day etc. Actually a lot of the fathers show up fairly frequently, showing that actually the can and are willing to share. Yet the mothers have chosen to give ip their jobs needlessly

[marthastew]

Echoing the point that Treats makes, my employer has been very supportive of me having to work around the hours that our nursery is open. I make up time after DS is in bed at home. I don't feel that men are treated the same way.

My husband's work is not at all supportive and indeed his colleagues have told him that it is a mother's job to deal with our son's nursery drop offs and pick ups. Without any flexibility at his work, even by a few minutes, he is unable to do pick ups, drop offs and therefore doesn't participate in the morning or evening routines as much as he (and I!) would like.

Employers and the government need to stops looking at mothers and fathers in different ways. We are all parents, regardless of gender.

[allnewtaketwo]

Vinegar, I'm sure the partners would have to reduce their hours if the woman was unavailable for constant childcare

I think a lot of the time the partners reach a sort of trade off. Woman gets to be SAHM and doesnt have to work, but clearly often the flip side is a grater need for the man to work longer and earn more money. This probably also plays to traditional gender roles which a lot of women, not just men, are comfortable with

[sleepyhead]

allnewtaketwo - that's just not my experience at all. There are many dads at ds's school who have taken on a greater caring role than might be seen as "traditional".

This could be because they work shifts (I think on mumsnet we get a skewed idea of the percentage of the population who actually have "high flying careers" - both male and female, they are firmly in the minority) or are otherwise free in the mornings, afternoons or some weekdays. Examples are ds's friend's dad who's a postman, another friend's dad who's older and semi-retired, another who's on an academic sabatical, yet another who's an actor, and several who are currently unemployed through no choice of their own.

I'm not saying it's 50% or even near, but it's far, far higher than I might have though before ds started school - although nursery drop off and pick up used to be the same.

Maybe it's the area we live in, I don't know, but I see a huge amount of variation. I guess if you're brought up to the ideal of woman as main carer, you don't see any examples of anything different among your peers, it's made hard for you to try something different, then you're likely to go for the default which is currently still woman=primary carer, but I refuse to see myself as some sort of freak for thinking that my dh loves and cares for my children as much as I do, and can do just as good a job - and yes, sometimes that might mean I have to compromise and not get what I want in order for dh to also get his share of caring (but I think the pay off is worth it ).

[allnewtaketwo]

That's what I said though sleepy, a lot of these women have partners who are very involved, turn up at school etc, do more then the traditional role. So why then did the women choose to give up their jobs? I do genuinely think that it is just what a lot of omen prefer to do, regardless of how hands on the father would be prepared to be

[Booyhoo]

i think it's very naive to think that a woman faces the same choice as a man when it comes to deciding who if anyone will take on the majority of the childcare responsiblities within a 2 parent family. there are reasons other than just "because the mum wanted to do the school run" why you may see mainly mothers collecting their children at the school gate. to deny that there are factors other than the woman wanting to more than the man is very naive.

[allnewtaketwo]

DH and I share childcare equally, both work flexibly. I think this is very, very, unusual

[allnewtaketwo]

I'm not being naive boohoo, these are women I know. Doctors, lawyers, dentists. They did not need to give up their jobs, they chose to

Tbh I think it often suits women to use the excuse there was no choice

[sleepyhead]

Again, not really my experience. There's as broad a mix of work patterns amongst the female partners as the male. Lots work full time, some tag team with their partners, some work part time, some want to be in work but are currently unemployed.

I don't know, I guess I think I'm seeing couples being pragmatic/imaginative/creative/making-the-best-of-a-bad-job rather than one partner taking the lead by default and the other following on. Maybe I'm naive.

[VinegarDrinker]

So do some people believe there is something inherent that makes more women than men want to give up work/reduce their hours etc or is it all social conditioning and gender stereotyping?

My parents split childcare which was even more unusual in the 80s/90s and my DH was brought up by a single (by choice) mum, so neither had the "traditional gender roles" ingrained from a young age.

[ATouchOfStuffing]

allnew anecdotal but all of the women I know (12) who had a baby in the last 2 years have returned to work, except me. As a single mum, childcare costs would completely eat my wage if I worked. I rent out my mum's old house and that is how we survive. Not eligible for benefits as own the house but living on a mere £800 per month, minus work needed doing to the house (which this month was £370, so we are living on £430 this month before tax and utility/council bills). Yes I could sell the house, but I would rather keep that option for a really rainy day or a trip around the world when DD flies the nest
You make it sound as if 'most' women would prefer to sit on their hands all day. Not that childcare and being a SAHM is challenging or anything...

[Booyhoo]

" They did not need to give up their jobs, they chose to

Tbh I think it often suits women to use the excuse there was no choice "

so these women that you know chose to give up work tell you that they had no choice?

[sleepyhead]

See, it might be different in the suburbs where the doctors, lawyers, dentists live - not a lot of that sort round here, so maybe the decisions are different when you're less likely to be able to live on one salary, although the one lawyer I do know at ds's school is a very senior academic and went back full time when her dc's were 6 months - her dp is a SAHD.

[allnewtaketwo]

I was brought up to be independent and to aim high. Maybe we should all encourage this in our daughters and try to overcome the barriers that way