Following Kirstie Allsopp's post, a guest blog by Belinda Phipps, CEO of the NCT

[KateMumsnet]

A couple of weeks ago, Mumsnet Blogger Kirstie Allsopp wrote a blog post in which she argued that the National Childbirth Trust is over-focused on natural birth, and that women who don't have one can feel underprepared, and even stigmatized. Her post sparked a lot of debate - have a look at the Talk thread for more background.

This week, NCT Chair Belinda Phipps has written us a guest blog in which she tackles some of Kirstie's points, and sets out how the organisation is changing to respond to the needs of all mothers.

What do you think? Let us know if you post on this subject - or let us have your thoughts here on the thread.

I finished my NCT classes last month and they were great. All aspects of birth were covered (including around an hour on drugs, time spent on forceps/ventouse delivery and around 45 mins just on c-sections). I don't feel like any agenda was pushed one way or the other, and after reading a lot of criticism of the NCT on Mumsnet I was ready for it!

Maybe it's the luck of the draw with the tutor.

My NCT classes were great. The best thing that came out of them was my new best friends though.

I was very lucky, as the NHS told me there was no way I could attend any antenatal classes as I was too far gone at my booking appt (21 weeks). Advice from all friends with kids was to go for NCT classes so I could learn something about birth and babies - I'd never changed a nappy in my life.

Thankfully the local teacher was very down to earth and practical, and the other women were too. I live in that sort of area.

But I know others have had all sorts of poor teaching, though I also know women who take any suggestion that there are reasons not to go for anaethetics the minute labour starts as proof that the teacher is full of a hippy agenda.

What efforts do central NCT make to get feedback on classes and ensure they are taught up to standard? Also I'm told there are now two different courses, the standard and the natural-focus course? If that is correct, it sounds like a terrible idea both for the NCT's reputation and for confusing prospective parents.

I had a bad NCT experience and feel that I was robbed! I attended half of a morning when the leader talked about natural births, which was no good to me because I had already been booked in for a selective c.section with twins. I had to leave early for the an appointment with my obstetrician was admitted to hospital and had an emergency c.section two days later. I know that was not the NCT's fault but there was no follow up, support or offer to make up with other classes - nothing.

The Leader made it very clear that there was no refund. Although, she did send me some notes, via email. I felt I paid £300 quid when I could have bought a bloody book. I didn't get to 'bond' with any of the other mums etc. as I had only met them once (briefly) and then to add insult to injury the Leader kept mailing me about weaning, sleeping, behaviour classes but would not let me attend in lieu of missed NCT classes. I would have to pay further!

I've also since, met a mum who had a prem baby before the NCT classes started and again didn't get a penny back and when she asked for a refund they told her no as they were a charity.

"there needs to be a clear route to tackling this."

Complaints procedure vigorous and robust at NCT - CEO has tweeted and posted many times encouraging people to contact her. All complaints are investigated.

From website: "If you have a complaint or other comments about NCT or our services please email [email protected]" www.nct.org.uk/contact-us

notcitrus - www.nct.org.uk/courses for info on courses. You have misunderstood something somewhere....not sure where your idea comes from :)

KC, my understanding is that refunds are always offered when someone is unable to attend a course for the reasons you describe....have never heard of anything like the situations in your post. Complain :)

Six years ago, when I was having my first child, I called the NCT organiser/tutor/whatever-they're-called to ask about classes. I knew that I was having an ELCS (for medical reasons) and I mentioned it to the lady over the phone, asking if the classes would still be suitable. I was told - and I quote - "We don't run classes for people like you.". I didn't get the chance to explain that I didn't have much of a choice about how I was going to give birth as the consultant had advised a section.

Supportive? Not in my experience. So, despite hearing lots of people rave about them and the friends they've made, I didn't attend and didn't bother even enquiring when it came to my two subsequent births.

I think a lot of the comments on this thread echo the original thread about Kirsty Allsops blog, so what actually interests me is whether there is going to be any action as a result of the comments.
I see 2 choices - the NCT either decide that they are happy that they are meeting their target audience aims - which seems to be affluent families who want a 'natural' agenda or they need to make some serious changes.
I am pg for the first time and to be honest I probably look like I fit the bill - have a reasonable wealth level, would prefer natural options and I don't have a local network of family or friends BUT
a) I would need a reduction in the price of the antenatal course (closer to £100 than £300)
b) Confidence that the course is standardised and that there is a balance to the material covered that favours 'natural', but recognises that 'natural' doesn't always happen and doesn't make a mum feel like a failure if 'natural' doesn't happen

As it stands at the moment I don't think that the NCT is for me at the ante-natal stage. I potentially would be interested in them after the birth, but my area is not affluent enough to support an NCT branch, so it would be a fair trek to the nearest 2 possible branches. If I don't find any support locally I may end up looking into it, but it will be a last choice because I already feel like I am not 'posh' enough to be part of the NCT.

IME the NCT was just like being in Mallory Towers and if you didn't fit in then you were definitely not welcome, until this changes the NCT will never move forward regardless of what is taught on courses.

TheyDidNotLikeBeingToldThisTiggaxx

Hi tiktok thanks for your feedback. The point I was trying to make was that we all felt like we were being told that, if for any reason we were unable to bf, there was no other adequate choice. (I agree with you about correctly preparing powdered formula, but that point wasn't made to us - we were told that powdered formula was full of bacteria, don't use it).

I discussed it with my group afterwards and we all gleaned the same message from the class (which took place over two evenings because there were so many of us, so she evidently repeated the message so that we would all hear it).

Each of us had difficulties with breastfeeding (reflux, mastitis, bleeding nipples, low milk supply, tongue tie, twins) and when we all got together for the 1st time after our babies were born we realised that we had all felt like complete failures for giving our babies a bit of formula when things had got really, really tough.

New motherhood is hard enough, and we all have enough guilt to deal with, without adding more.

Sorry tiktok but that's just not true. There is not a clear process. For a start nobody should have to seek out the complaints procedure. It should be included at the bottom of every booking email IMO. Not in large type, but it should be there.

However, there's a world of difference between somebody feeling something wasn't quite right and feeling they want to "complain". Everyone attending should be invited to give feedback on the classes. This should then be used to improve the classes. "Not enough time spent on c-sections" may well be a valid point for a particular class and teacher but probably isn't enough to make somebody seek out the complaints procedure. It is enough though to give a negative impression of the organisation for that individual.

I say this as a huge fan of NCT. I think they do brilliant work, I love the 20:20 strategy, in the past I have volunteered hundreds of hours of my time and money but I think some of the implementation is poor and the organisation needs to do more to tackle that.

Regarding feedback and complaints about courses.
All teachers are encouraged to collect evaluation from courses to improve their own practise.
In addition to this everyone who attends a course is sent an e-mailed asking them to feedback, this is collated and the comments looked at. This is fed back to the teachers and any negative comments are bought up with them. Any feedback about other aspects of the course is also noted and action taken eg venues.
See www.nct.org.uk/courses/quality-assurance/course-feedback for details.
If you have recently done a course and not been invited to feedback please contact [email protected] who will sort this out for you.

LadyHel, I agree then, that the message you got was not right - the idea is to inform people. I'd suggest though that many people come to NCT classes already having strong feelings about how they want to feed (I know this from my own experience of listening to mothers and also reading their views here :)) - mothers are not mere empty vessels in which we pour our 'stuff'. The breastfeeding session is 2-3 hours. The whole culture and upbringing and experience of the average adult in the class totals a lot of years.

The feeling of 'failure' some mothers have when they give formula may not come from us - though it should never be enhanced or sharpened by contact with us, and I think we have got this a lot better and clearer these days (we have a 'new message framework on infant feeding).

Celine - everyone who does an NCT course gets the opportunity to give feedback, to the organisation and the course teacher. I agree with you that not everyone wants to complain, but I promise you they are invited to comment and to feedback, in any way they want, and thousands do.

www.nct.org.uk/courses/quality-assurance/course-feedback

"Overall assessments
19 out of 20 first-time mothers (95%) and first-time fathers (94%) agreed or strongly agreed their teacher did a good job, and would recommend the course to other parents.
97% of first-time mothers and 91% of fathers felt their needs were met by the course."

That's from survey 'preparing for birth and parenthood' - googleable, survey from 2011.

I'm bowing out of this debate now - got to get on with other stuff. NCT knows it gets things wrong, and has got them 'wronger' in the past, and it is continually making strenuous efforts to be more consistent ie 'righter' more often. The evidence is most people are happy with their experiences.

No they are not cmt1375. They only ask for feedback from some classes. I have this direct from UKO. I asked the last 4 or 5 people who have done courses if they were invited to give feedback. None of them were

I have also spoken to teachers who never see feedback from their courses.

As I have said I am a big supporter of NCT but they don't do those basic things.

Do I have to cut and paste the email from UKO feedback email below to prove this? I can but obviously I will remove all identifying information.

The NCT website clearly says that everyone is, I will try and clarify this.

I know that. Which is why I emailed and said, eh? I have never been asked nor the people I know. I can pm you the name of the person at UKO but the wording used in the email included:

We currently only request feedback from selected courses

Our NCT class was very balanced. We did a good role play thing covering all the people who would be in the room if we ended up with a CS, all of which was aimed at helping us be calm and understand what was going on if that was what happened. Our teacher also put the bottle feeding card in our packs, even though she said she was supposed to hold it back, because she said that if we did end up needing it we were likely to be pretty stressed and she thought it was unhelpful to keep information from people.

"Everyone attending should be invited to give feedback on the classes. This should then be used to improve the classes"

They are. As cmt says above, everyone who attends the course is emailed and given the opportunity to give detailed feedback.

Once enough surveys have been filled out to be analysed they are fed back to the teacher.

If you took the comments of people on this forum to be representative of people's opinions generally you'd assume a fairly low satisfaction with NCT classes.

In fact the vast majority of people attend classes who bother to fill these forms out give very positive feedback about their courses.

But then if you pick through a lot of the criticism on these boards some of it comes from people who've not actually attended NCT, but have formed an opinion of the organisation based on what friends have said, or from attending NCT drop ins or other events. Some of the negativity seems to be based around people not wanting to mix with mothers who are old and perceived to be 'posh' .

I also take some of the comments here about what was and wasn't covered/said in NCT classes with a pinch of salt - I know from attending reunions that people often have VERY poor recall of what was said in classes. I've also had conflicting feedback from different people attending the same course, showing that people take away very different messages from classes depending perhaps on their personal agendas, fears and hopes for their birth and parenthood.

I can't imagine where some people get the idea people in the NCT are dogmatic

"I asked the last 4 or 5 people who have done courses if they were invited to give feedback. None of them were"

Celine - I am sitting here looking at the course pack that EVERY parent who does an NCT course is given. It has a sheet in it with big writing across the top: How to give us feedback on your course.

It explains that they will be contacted by email within a month of finishing the course, and gives a contact address if this doesn't happen. It also gives a phone number if you want to make a comment or complaint about your course directly to the head of professional services at the NCT. I think that's pretty explicit.

Celine - you're insisting people aren't told how to give feedback. I know this isn't true. Maybe people don't bother to open the course packs or look through the information inside. Maybe they don't check their emails. Maybe they don't actually care enough to pursue it. Whatever - more than 9 out of 10 people who do NCT who DO feed back value their courses and would recommend them to other people.

I think this all goes to show that, as mentioned by various posters on here, it depends on where you are and what group leader you have.

So fabs, while I'm sure you are a great antenatal class leader, can't you at least entertain that the commonly held vies and experiences of many women around the country aren't as good as those that you may provide?

I do remember a lot of what was taught at my classes (no need for a refresher course this time round; I'm 31wks pregnant) and the breathing exercises were great. I'm not saying it was all bad but the overriding impression wasn't great - my fellow NCT alumni still joke about the leader even now.

And re:feedback, quite frankly it wasn't top of my list to feedback (I wasn't asked to) or complain about the classes once my baby was born.

I think that's the case for a vast number of new parents and doesn't just apply to NCT: I have friends who had appalling birth experiences where the hospital was largely at fault but because it was so traumatic, by the time they'd recovered enough and got to grips with motherhood, they didn't want to go through it all again by complaining.

It also applies with workplace training courses - my organisation finds it difficult to get a good feedback rate for courses and seminars it runs.

Anyway, my overall point is that those at the top of the NCT need to realise that whatever they think their organisation is doing, it is often not the reality in many classes and in many areas.

We went to nct antenatal classes mainly to meet other local parents, and it was really good for that- I met two women in particular who I know I will always be close to. The information was fine, the teacher asked at the start of the course what we wanted to learn about, and tailored the course exactly to the group. We taled anout pain relief, c sections, episiotomy, inteventions, natural birth, water birth etc. It was far better than the hypnobirthing course we did ( where the tutor helpfully described having your waters broken as 'agonising' and similar to having 'a crochet hook forced into your uterus' - no fear there then )

Th nct breastfeeding class was a bit rubbish to be honest, but I think that's because you do actually need a baby in your arms to be learn to do it - it was all just a bit abstract. My teacher was really helpful after ds was born in arranging breastfeeding support for me.

However, the real problem in my area was the actual nct groups- very cliquey, very difficult to break into others conversations which disappointed me. Also, I had a bit of a rough delivery and was in a wheelchair and then zimmer for a long time afterwards. I went to a bumps and babes class on my zimmer one week (dh took me and picked me up, ds was about 4 months old, it was my first trip out of the house alone with him so a big deal to me) i did everything I could to join in and chat, and as they were asking for volunteers at the end of the session, i offered to sign up to help out at the group on a regular basis - was told that as I wasn't very mobile they didn't need me as I wouldn't be any use. Nice attitude. I didn't go back.