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AMA

I am an ex Forever Living rep. AMA

80 replies

ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 18:42

I am now anti MLM and have posted candidly for quite some time on the Bot Watch threads.

OP posts:
Ilikecurrybest · 31/08/2019 19:48

Thanks for being so candid . I’d like to know Do you still use any of the product?

jewel1968 · 31/08/2019 19:50

Do you see similar behaviour and practices in other lines of business? Are you extremely wary now of anyone trying to sell you anything?

ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 19:52

OwnerofanAngryCat

How many of your recruits or down line are still in FL.

Zero!

Did you have one of those dreamboards or whatever they are called with pictures of cars and holidays?

Yes, in pride of place in my house Blush

We're you encouraged to fake I until you make it (lie) and did you?

Yes and as much as I could. I cleared debts by using a windfall but claimed FL had allowed me to do it. I bought designer goods from a friend and paid in installments but implied i had done a shopping spree.

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Whiterangey · 31/08/2019 19:53

Were any of Castle's siblings involved with you? Was it a family business kind of thing where they all joined in together on calls and stuff?

Thank you for doing this.

ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 19:53

@HairyPotter

Are anyone of your uplines mentioned in the Bot Watch threads?

PhD, Halifax mum of twins, castle bed and castle

Did you attend success days and if so, how much did it cost you?

£30 ticket and then fuel approx 120 sometimes split between a car full of people plus food and drink

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Whiterangey · 31/08/2019 19:54

Was there rivalry among the top bots? Did Castle slag off the others At thre top of forever?

OwnerofanAngryCat · 31/08/2019 20:09

Thank you for doing this

Do you think you learned or gained anything positive (skills etc) from all the coaching or training you received?

Did your family ever try to intervene?

ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 20:26

@Whiterangey

Were any of Castle's siblings involved with you? Was it a family business kind of thing where they all joined in together on calls and stuff?

Thank you for doing this.

They would sometimes talk on online training and both spoke at Castles first ever huge team training event. They would both go live into Castles main team page and would both champion the Eagles team.

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ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 20:32

@Whiterangey

Was there rivalry among the top bots? Did Castle slag off the others At thre top of forever?

It was always an implied 'Mean girls' type of environment. She would critiscise people such as Leech yet also be in awe of her. Rivalry wasnt something i was aware of but she wanted Eagles Team to be the top team that everyone wanted to join. She had training from O'Conman and had around 10 recordings made by him for her. She passed these secretly down to her downlink who passed it on to their downlink etc. so she screwed him over.

When I left, it was as her online training website migrated to a new page saying her family friend had stole the fee she charged for membership. I was in contact with him and he painted a very different picture of how she had got greedy and tried to screw him over. The whole time he was telling g me this whilst her team rallied around her with messages off support. He told me how she would joke about her team being her minions and would come off a call and shout 'idiot' at the phone.

I just remembered, in the old castle house the siblings did work from a family office together.

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Twentytwentyhindsight · 31/08/2019 20:33

Yes, as others have said, thank you for putting it out there- it is much appreciated.

You say you 'earned' £600/month, but that to do so 'cost' you £450/month.

Therefore, in the best of times, you were making £150/month.

Can you give an idea of where this money came from/went- i.e. how much of the income came from your margins on personal sales, how much from your cut on downlines' activities; also, what did the £450 costs comprise- transport, postage, 'trainings', samples, coffee meetings, purchases for personal use (being a product of the product/your own best customer)...?

ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 20:35

OwnerofanAngryCat

Thank you for doing this

Do you think you learned or gained anything positive (skills etc) from all the coaching or training you received?

It did encourage me not to settle in life. It also taught me that salt can often look like sugar!

Did your family ever try to intervene?

No, surprisingly they were supportive. My husband had faith in me but didn't understand the system. Ditto for other family, I'm the youngest so most savvy with tech etc.

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SmellbowSpaceBowl · 31/08/2019 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 20:39

Ilikecurrybest

Thanks for being so candid . I’d like to know Do you still use any of the product?

The lip balm is honestly the nicest I've ever used. I quite liked the Marine Mask but wouldn't buy it again as I prefer high end brands.

Do you see similar behaviour and practices in other lines of business? Are you extremely wary now of anyone trying to sell you anything?

I see it in the property development coaches pushing mindset and funnel marketing systems! I've never been approached for other mlms etc. A school mum I really respect has started body shop at home, I'm just ignoring her requests to join her group etc.

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fromthefloorboardsup · 31/08/2019 20:43

I also want to thank you for this. Not to hijack your thread, but my dad did FL for a while when he lost his job and was really low
on self esteem & much hope at all really. He was very vulnerable and I have always been so angry and heartbroken that they suckered him in by playing on this. He got out quite a few years ago now but I'm still horrified that MLMs are allowed to exist because I think they prey on the vulnerable the most. I tried to tell him I didn't like FL a few times but he thought I was just being unsupportive. I've said nothing since he left.

leasedaudi · 31/08/2019 21:22

Ah thanks @ReformedB0t !

Did you ever get to visit the castle?

Did you ever go to online training in your PJs? I would be so embarrassed to be on a VC to work in my PJs. When I wfh I still do makeup and wear suitable clothes for video calls!

Was the aloe tasty and did you ever do a c9?

Maranello4 · 31/08/2019 22:00

Thank you for sharing an open and honest account. First question - Why do women work for MLMs like FL in particular (and not men)? I've heard about women being targeted - and have one friend who is now an Arbonne rep on the weight loss, rather than make up side, and looks to have been recruited when her second child was very ill. In contrast, another is a body shop at home consultant and is from a wealthy background, sees nothing wrong in hosting a few parties for friends and acquaintances. Second question which follows - what more could be done to protect those from joining an MLM - especially if they've never heard of MLM as a concept?

SirJamesTalbotAndHisSpeculum · 31/08/2019 22:27

I'm surprised nobody from FL has tried to hijack this thread.

Perhaps they haven't seen it yet?

How do they react to the Bot Watch thread? Can they really sue any of you for exposing them?

BadnessInTheFolds · 31/08/2019 22:41

Did anyone try and put you off or convince you to leave? (Sorry if this is answered previously, I know you said family were supportive)

What would you say to someone just starting out?

ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 22:46

*Twentytwentyhindsight

Yes, as others have said, thank you for putting it out there- it is much appreciated.

You say you 'earned' £600/month, but that to do so 'cost' you £450/month.

Therefore, in the best of times, you were making £150/month.

Can you give an idea of where this money came from/went- i.e. how much of the income came from your margins on personal sales, how much from your cut on downlines' activities; also, what did the £450 costs comprise- transport, postage, 'trainings', samples, coffee meetings, purchases for personal use (being a product of the product/your own best customer)...?*

My margins on sales were extremely low of not non-existent! I'd usually sell products very close to the wholesale price and absorb the costs of postage myself so was practically paying to sell! I once bought a C9 and gave it away as a prize, hoping that would generate word of mouth sales - it didn't.

A customer once wanted a refund on a c9, I had to refund her money and then head office sent me a replacement product. In the business presentation opportunity script, it was a selling point that 'we' offered a 100% company backed money back guarantee. It was only as customers asked for refunds that we would learn that head office only gave replacement products so we would have to try and sell those to recoup our losses. This meant if we actually sold it, we wouldn't benefit from it boosting our sales that month as it wasn't a new purchase. I think I sold about 10 c9s in total and I even sold these at less than wholesale just to make the sale. The logic was that it would count towards my monthly personal 4 'Case Credits' (approx. £990 sales or 600 wholesale) that I had to turn over to qualify for my teams sales bonus, or that I would be closer to promotion that would give me a bigger bonus %. That is where any incoming money came from, never sales. At first we would earn £29 for each new team member who signed up to us, this rose to around £60 and would count as 2 full Case Credits. So the goal was to recruit 2 people as that would be the quickest way to turn over 4cc. However of the mandatory 4cc, 1cc still had to come from sales so we couldn't just be a recruiting business. When I needed a promotion, I worked out that it was cheaper to 'buy' 2cc by recruiting a fake person for £200 than buying £300 wholesale product...!

It was a vicious cycle of trying to hit the CC at any cost in order to receive the team bonus and hit promotion for an even bigger team bonus payment.

also, what did the £450 costs comprise- transport, postage, 'trainings', samples, coffee meetings, purchases for personal use (being a product of the product/your own best customer)...

Postage, I always absorbed by doing bigger orders, which in reality meant ordering more. Postage was £7-£9 depending on the order. Minimum order was £50. I'd usually find I had an order for £20 of product, making me about £3 with my tiny profit margin as I sold at less than rrp. I'd then have to try and generate more sales whilst fending off people asking how long their order would be before finally just spending the extra required money on products for myself/samples and covering postage.

Gosh I'd forgotten how dire it was!

Transport - deliveries to customers I didn't even factor in or record. I once did a delivery 50 miles away. I didn't keep track of fuel to trainings and wouldn't always have people to car share with.

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ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 22:56

@SmellbowSpaceBowl

Thankyou, I am educated at post graduate level with a professional career.

@leasedaudi

Ah thanks @ReformedB0t !

Did you ever get to visit the castle?

Funnily enough no :( I was gutted as she ran an incentive and I didn't qualify. The prize was an exclusive party at her castle. Those that went told me it was cliquey and not as good as they hoped, I thought they were mad as I just wanted to be part of it.

Did you ever go to online training in your PJs? I would be so embarrassed to be on a VC to work in my PJs. When I wfh I still do makeup and wear suitable clothes for video calls!

Yes I did the obligatory posts Blush. We were taught by Lanzabot that it was a 'monkey see, monkey do' business so I copied up lines posts to try and have their success! I did enjoy dressing up business like for Costa meetings though and when I met online with a very professional woman considering joining my team, I dressed up for that.

Was the aloe tasty and did you ever do a c9?

Not tasty but not that bad for me. Tasted kind of citrus/grassy. I only ever did one c9, it was ok but I now know nutritionally and long term it was a terrible way to lose weight. I did find the shakes tasty, they actually DON'T have aloe in them contrary to popular belief!

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ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 23:07

*@Maranello4

Thank you for sharing an open and honest account. First question - Why do women work for MLMs like FL in particular (and not men)? I've heard about women being targeted - and have one friend who is now an Arbonne rep on the weight loss, rather than make up side, and looks to have been recruited when her second child was very ill. In contrast, another is a body shop at home consultant and is from a wealthy background, sees nothing wrong in hosting a few parties for friends and acquaintances. Second question which follows - what more could be done to protect those from joining an MLM - especially if they've never heard of MLM as a concept*

There were quite a few men in Forever but generally I think the consensus is that women will find themselves in situations where they want to make a bit of money more often than men I.e. mums on mat leave, housewives. The dream with MLM is that it fits around family life. It makes you realise how on the whole, women can't have it all unless they do it all yet MLM implies you don't have to drop your child at breakfast club then dash to work. Trainings do explicitly mention 'think of people who may need an extra income, Mums on maternity leave for example or someone expecting a baby'.

I think it's a cultural thing that usually mums stay at home and men go to work so women are the ones who will be more open to it. Certainly since following botwatch and listening to podcasts about mlm that's what I've learned.

What more could be done when people join an MLM? The only way I think the model could work is to remove all recruitment and team building and to stop a company offering further incentives or bonuses on sales. Make it purely a sales opportunity with personal profit on sales being the reward, like a franchise.

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ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 23:18

@SirJamesTalbotAndHisSpeculum

^I'm surprised nobody from FL has tried to hijack this thread.

Perhaps they haven't seen it yet?

How do they react to the Bot Watch thread? Can they really sue any of you for exposing them?^

I was first made aware of the Bot Watch threads by Castle! At her first big training day in 2015 (about 500 people there) she stood on stage talking about mindset and how she had to stay strong and so did we as people will always say stuff about us, it went something like:

"There's even a whole thread about me on that mumsnet and I just don't look. I don't look because they're gonna keep on doing what they're doing and I will keep on doing what I am doing" tear up for dramatic effect and huge applause erupts

I started reading the threads after this then ignored them for a year, returning when my doubts really erupted after being suppressed.

Any bots that come on to bot watch will say "I know what you think but that's not my experience." I'd have said the same at the time but I was kidding myself.

I don't know if FL can sue us, they have the money. All I know is that MNHQ are quick to remove posts that name the bots due to an apparent threat to MN if they allow the threads to continue identifying people. I think the threat was made to MN rather than individuals.

I would be very wary of speaking out openly and have never taken up offers from journalists that are sometimes posted in the threads to whistleblow.

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ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 23:27

@BadnessInTheFolds

Did anyone try and put you off or convince you to leave? (Sorry if this is answered previously, I know you said family were supportive)

No not that I can recall. I had one old acquaintance chastise me for trying to recruit them and sent me a massive essay. About a year later they apologised to me out of the blue 'for being a dick' but they were actually right!

What would you say to someone just starting out?

"You're obviously very excited right now so there's not much I can say to sway you other than watch out for those hidden costs I.e. minimum orders, subscriptions etc. and ask yourself why this is the case in such an amazing business. Also, go back through the archives of the old forever magazines, how many promotions do you see during 2014-2016 vs 2017 -2019? Do you think this may be why the magazine no longer publishes promotions? Take a look through those old success stories, where are they now? Trust your instinct and consider what box you were put into by the person who recruited you - single mum? new mum? tired and stressed professional? Do you think you may be vulnerable in any way that makes you more desperate to believe in the business?"

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SirJamesTalbotAndHisSpeculum · 31/08/2019 23:34

How many levels of MLM are there?

Are the really Top Dogs ever seen at training events?

How high up the pecking order is Castle, for example?

I am finding this thread fascinating. You're very brave to admit to being indoctrinated.

Have you had to have counselling to come to terms with what happened to you?

Has your DH been understanding now that you've realised you were being strung along?

Sorry - there were a lot of questions in that post.

ReformedB0t · 31/08/2019 23:37

@fromthefloorboardsup

Did he leave or did it just dwindle away? They are having a big push on re-engaging bots who have left so be mindful!

When going for promotions we were told it's a good idea to ask inactive team members if they wanted to restart.

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