Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Where did the 'fact' that puberty blockers are reversible come from?

138 replies

WarriorN · 25/08/2023 14:52

Following the Roisin Murphy thread where a poster on a forum that was linked stated:

"puberty blockers are reversible, fact"

Does anyone know exactly what the evidence for that claim was based on originally?

Bits I've read by Michael Biggs weave a tangled tale of clinicians saying It Is So but no real scientific evidence?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
WarriorN · 26/08/2023 08:18

Pencils, all the local safeguarding training I've done discusses that, especially when we cover severe abuse in early childhood. Because the brain changes are so rapid in the teen years, on a similar level to 0-3, positive input at that point can do a lot to support more positive outcomes for an individual child.

Which is why I'm even more concerned about the children who were referred with multiple issues including trauma as the act of puberty plus a lot of support would have surely been a better long term solution.

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 00:02

When my kids were teenagers a book called 'Blame My Brain: the Amazing Teenage Brain Revealed' by Nicola Morgan, was a best seller.

During the teenage years the brain is undergoing its most radical and fundamental change since the age of two.

Even if puberty blockers did not have horrific side effects of their own, how can blocking this extremely important stage of child development be benign?

Imagine a 'blocker' that delayed a 2 y/o's normal development. How is this any better?

OhcantthInkofaname · 25/08/2023 22:52

I have a science background and I'm not sure. I don't know if they are giving puberty blockers and alternate hormones at the same time (for example suppressing testosterone and giving estrogen).

NotBadConsidering · 25/08/2023 22:36

DadJoke · 25/08/2023 16:20

The effects of puberty blockers are reversible. If a person stops taking puberty blockers, the effects of puberty will return or resume. That's what reversible means in this context.

This is not entirely true and neither is this:

In medical terms they are reversible in that once you stop taking them hormone production will resume.

It is not entirely known if this statement holds true for a lengthening time period. Puberty blockers when used for central precocious puberty (CPP) are always stopped after a few years and the hypothalamus resumes its job. But what happens if you use puberty blockers for 5 years? Or 10 years? It is not certain that hormone production from the hypothalamus will resume and it also not certain that the response in the gonads will resume.

There is also evidence that the testes can atrophy and sclerose after years of no use which means that even if the hypothalamus resumes its job, no testosterone will be able to be produced and puberty will not resume.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 25/08/2023 22:20

Back in 2021, in the Daily Telegraph, on 20th March.

This is an endocrinologist and senior lecturer at a university, who is clearly trying not to condemn the administration of GnRH analogues. Yet, even he has to clarify that they aren't 'reversible'.

There is controversy over whether puberty blockers (GnRH-analogues) are reversible. They were originally developed to treat prostate cancer and endometriosis, but are also used to treat children with precocious puberty and some adult transpeople. They are administered via injection or implant and ‘switch off ’ sex-hormone production; started in early puberty, they bring adolescence to a halt. ‘Are blockers reversible? It depends what you mean, by reversible,’ says Dr Richard Quinton, an endocrinologist and senior lecturer at Newcastle University. ‘When the blockers wear off, a young person’s own sex hormones will “wake up” again,’ he says. ‘This includes a resumption of fertility, but the process of building stronger teenage bones is disrupted and may not be entirely recoverable.’ Even the effects of cross-sex hormones are ‘to some extent reversible upon stopping, but the truth is that no one quite knows for any individual person’. Rumours that puberty blockers cause cognitive or behavioural difficulties have not been substantiated, he says.

Taken from: [[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/truth-parent-transitioning-teen/

The truth about being a parent to a transitioning teen

Sandwiched between both sides of a highly-charged debate are anguished parents trying to do the right thing for their children

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/truth-parent-transitioning-teen

Boomboom22 · 25/08/2023 22:14

Should be banned for all uses really. Such permanent side effects .

Helleofabore · 25/08/2023 22:11

Warrior, I reckon I could keep posting article after article about the girls and women reporting long term health issues due to Lupron. Apparently the pharmaceutical company have tweaked it and the new drug has a different name, yet I have read some doctors expect it will have some of the similar side effects.

In female people Lupron was used for precocious puberty, IVF, and endometriosis.

WarriorN · 25/08/2023 22:06

Helleofabore I think there was a poster here for a while who shared her chronic health issues due to the drug (I remember thyroid being one) but I can't remember more details

OP posts:
WarriorN · 25/08/2023 22:04

Thank you Neighbourhood.

It's not correct to say they are completely safe or reversible, is it.

OP posts:
NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 25/08/2023 21:52

A commentary on
Cognitive, Emotional, and Psychosocial Functioning of Girls Treated with Pharmacological Puberty Blockage for Idiopathic Central Precocious Puberty
by Wojniusz, S., Callens, N., Sütterlin, S., Andersson, S., De Schepper, J., Gies, I., et al. (2016). Front. Psychol. 7:1053. doi: ^10.3389/fpsyg.2016.01053^

Taken from [[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00044/full#B8

Gonadotropin releasing hormone agonists (GnRHas) have been found to impair memory in adults, so the study by Wojniusz et al. (2016) on the possible cognitive effects of these drugs on children treated for idiopathic central precocious puberty (CPP) represents an important contribution to research in this area. Recent findings that GnRHas increase depression symptoms (Macoveanu et al., 2016) and slow reaction time (Stenbæk et al., 2016) in healthy women, and reduce long-term spatial memory in sheep (Hough et al., 2017) underline the importance of the research that Wojniusz et al. (2016) have undertaken. However, their reassuring statement in the abstract that girls undergoing GnRHa treatment for CPP and controls “showed very similar scores with regard to cognitive performance” and their conclusion that “GnRHa treated girls do not differ in their cognitive functioning … from the same age peers” (Wojniusz et al., 2016) may be overly optimistic. These statements minimize the fairly substantial difference found in IQ scores and may also overemphasize its lack of statistical significance, as given the small number of participants in the study statistical significance has a high threshold. The statements should be qualified to indicate that the research has, in fact, reinforced concerns over the impact of GnRHas on cognitive performance in children.

Girls treated for CPP with triptorelin acetate were tested with the short form Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children III. It was found that the girls had a mean IQ of 94, as against a mean IQ of 102 for the matched control group (Wojniusz et al., 2016). These IQ estimations are presented as standardized IQ scores, which places a girl scoring 102 at the 55th percentile, and a girl scoring of 94 at the 34th percentile. It is questionable whether scores that indicate a percentile gap of this size can be described as “very similar.” The 8 point gap is not statistically significant (p = 0.09) but, as the authors point out, this may be a function of the small number of participants (15 treated girls, 15 controls).

The authors contend that despite the small number of participants the results can—probably—be relied on to indicate that if GnRHas do cause a decline in IQ, this decline will be under 1 standard deviation (SD), which “represents a boundary of what is a clinically interesting difference” (Wojniusz et al., 2016). The contention that a decline only becomes clinically interesting if it is of at least 1 standard deviation is unconvincing. Any findings which indicate that GnRHas cause a decline, even a modest decline, in IQ are likely to be of considerable interest to patients and their parents. It is a factor that they may well want to consider in deciding whether or not to take the drug. They may, for example, wish to consider the possible effect of GnRHas on a child's school and exam performance. In this respect it can be noted that 2 of the treated girls had been held back a year at school. Given their advanced physical maturity, children with precocious puberty may find it particularly uncomfortable to be put in a class where they are a year older than their class mates. If GnRHa treatment does cause a reduction in IQ, this may contribute to the decision to place a child in a lower age year group. Certainly, treatment that has a deleterious effect on IQ will do nothing to help children who are academically behind to catch up.

The question of whether a drop in IQ of around 8 points has clinical significance must also be considered in the context of the uncertain benefits of GnRHa treatment for CPP. The ability of GnRHas to increase final height has not been confirmed by randomized controlled trials (Bouvattier et al., 1999; Cassio et al., 1999). Where girls with CPP experience psychosocial difficulties, providing support rather than drugs may be the most appropriate response (Hayes, 2016).
The findings of Wojniusz et al. (2016) can be compared with those of a 2001 study in which 25 children treated for early puberty with triptorelin acetate were tested with the short form Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (Mul et al., 2001). In this longitudinal study, children took the IQ test before treatment and again after 2 years of treatment. It was found that their IQ dropped 7 points from 100 to 93. With 25 treated participants, this 7 point drop was significant (p = 0.002). In both studies the difference in the performance element of the test was greater than in the verbal element. The similarities between the findings of these two studies strengthens their reliability and increases the possibility that GnRHa treatment may have an adverse impact on cognitive functioning in children. This makes it yet more important for further research to be carried out into the effects GnRHas may have on cognitive performance in children.

Commentary: Cognitive, Emotional, and Psychosocial Functioning of Girls Treated with Pharmacological Puberty Blockage for Idiopathic Central Precocious Puberty

Gonadotropin releasing hormone agonists (GnRHas) have been found to impair memory in adults, so the study by Wojniusz et al. (2016) on the possible cognitive effects of these drugs on children treated for idiopathic central precocious puberty (CPP) rep...

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00044/full#B8

Delphinium20 · 25/08/2023 21:13

They are totally safe in this scenario. It's what they are licensed to treat.

This is an irresponsible claim. There is evidence of patients treated with blockers for precocious puberty who in their 20s and 30s have bone density issues and teeth breakdowns.

www.pbs.org/newshour/health/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems

AlisonDonut · 25/08/2023 20:08

Two things.

1 - GIDS were told that using puberty blockers would not allow genitals to develop properly so that when they operated when older, there would not be enough material to use. Nobody bothered to write this down anywhere so any new medics joining after this session had no idea about this.

2 - if any one of the gender clinics genuinely thought that using these drugs [they would have been taught that it was used to castrate men as part of their training] then one at least would have done follow ups even if it would be to prove that they were effective in order to secure future funding. The fact that not one across the whole planet did [or is willing to release the results if they did] is damning. They bloody knew.

WarriorN · 25/08/2023 19:54

Yes that's one of my concerns Pale; my thyroid condition started during late puberty and I have had to adjust the dosage of thyroxine at key hormonal life stages such as pregnancy, post pregnancy and peri menopause, also some tweaking when hrt was started.

It's common for that to go awry in or after pregnancy and menopause. I remember one of the detransitioned males said hrt had triggered his autoimmune hypothyroidism.

There must be other endocrine systems that rely on natural development.

The concerns around pb use in children with pernicious puberty are linked to bone health and other endocrine issues iirc later in life.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 25/08/2023 19:48

AvengedQuince · 25/08/2023 19:35

So a spatial memory impairment, would that be things like navigating in a city? Would it affect driving ability? I wonder if everyday life will be harder for these young people in terms of cognitive function (on top of everything else). Are they going to be like children just with more life experience?

Unfortunately human individuals are so different anyway that it's probably hard to quantify. Hence the "May." Sheep are more uniform too so it is easier to track behavioural changes.

I'm actually more concerned about impacts on mental health which would be more measurable in children (which includes up to 18) whilst they're on them.

This is a mental health concern so "treatment" should be helpful.

The Tavistock data that was salvageable showed worsening MH in teen girls.

OP posts:
PaleBlueMoonlight · 25/08/2023 19:46

The impact of puberty blockers on puberty must surely depend on what correct sex hormones are responsible for in relation to puberty. We know they are responsible.for the maturation of genitals, sexual function and secondary sex characteristics, but you would have thought that it would be more complicated than that, with lots going on physically that contributes towards growing up/other aspects of maturation? Presumably lots of different things are interacting or dependent on one another as well?

WarriorN · 25/08/2023 19:38

Highlights
•
Peripubertal GnRHaa impaired long-term spatial reference memory.

•
This GnRHa-effect was not counteracted with testosterone replacementt in rams.

•
Traverse times of spatial orientation and learning tasks were unaffected by GnRHa.

•
GnRHa exaggerated emotional reactivity during these spatial tasks.

•
Testosterone replacement decreased emotional reactivity and motivation in tasks.

The last one is interesting

Sorry about formatting

OP posts:
WarriorN · 25/08/2023 19:36

This is the study that preceded the other sheep study.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453016305595

OP posts:
AvengedQuince · 25/08/2023 19:35

So a spatial memory impairment, would that be things like navigating in a city? Would it affect driving ability? I wonder if everyday life will be harder for these young people in terms of cognitive function (on top of everything else). Are they going to be like children just with more life experience?

WarriorN · 25/08/2023 19:32

Whilst looking around for another sheep study, I stumbled across this NZ resource

fullyinformed.nz/docs/literature/

It has simplified versions of studies, e.g.

fullyinformed.nz/docs/literature/
Conclusion
Claims on the Ministry of Health website and in the New Zealand Guidelines that puberty blockers are ”safe and fully reversible” are false. The study demonstrates that in sheep puberty is a critical window for the development of long-term spatial memory, amongst possible other cognitive functions. Suppressing normal puberty will likely have permanent negative impacts on cognitive function.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 25/08/2023 19:28

That was in Rams.

There is a long discussion at the end around the differing uses of the drugs in different cohorts of patients. Weighing up the risks and benefits.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 25/08/2023 19:23

This was one sheep study:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5333793/

A reduction in long-term spatial memory persists after discontinuation of peripubertal GnRH agonist treatment in sheep

	
Peripubertal GnRHa impaired long-term spatial memory.
	•
This impairment was not reversed after discontinuing GnRHa-treatment.
	•
Spatial orientation and learning performance remained unaffected following GnRHa withdrawal.
	•
Speed of progression through these spatial tasks was altered after discontinuing GnRHa.
	•
GnRH irreversibly alters these cognitive functions during critical window of development.
OP posts:
Boomboom22 · 25/08/2023 19:23

Maybe the detrans would be the most willing to help with this vital research to help save others in future?

Boomboom22 · 25/08/2023 19:22

And if they all believe it is fine then no problem being monitored to prove this so future trans kids can have the safest care no?