Trans women are women but

THIS! Biological men are a threat to women. Transwomen are men.

How do we organise society on the basis that "trans women" are simultaneously women, and not women?

Exactly.

The whole thing is a logical fallacy

Trans women are women but

They're not though

The whole house of cards is based on a lie. Sex matters. No amount of 'identifying as' trumps biological fact.

Kindness matters because it signals the removal of women's rights SO F**K kindness

You lost me in your title - they are not women.
You lost me again - everyone has the right to identify as they choose.

Just no. Can they identify a different age, race, animal, object? No they cant. So let's stop with this identifying nonsense and go back to the drawing board.

Men in dresses are not women. You have to stop saying this

How annoying, I posted on a thread that was deleted as a duplicate. I will say again:

Op, how are you defining "trans woman"? How does that differ from "woman"? Assuming (as your post suggests) that there is a difference, why would you want them both to fit into the category "woman"?

How do we organise society on the basis that "trans women" are simultaneously women, and not women?

Trans women are NOT women. And repeat.

So I believe everyone has the right to identify as they choose

if I identify as a brain surgeon, will you let me lose on your skull?

individual TW's may be all sorts of things - clever, virtuous, funny, brave, noble, kind, you name it, all are eminently possible. but woman, never. 'woman' isn't an adjective, it's a noun - and wanting to be a woman, or trying really hard to be a woman, or making sacrifices to be a woman, none of these is really a thing. calling someone a 'woman' isn't a compliment - it's either just a statement of fact or a statement of error/untruth.

100% spot on as ever nilsmousehammer. I cannot get my brain around why other women and men cannot see this it is staring them in the face, waving and shouting it loud and clear.

Trans women are women but...

Given the number women who are murdered/raped/attacked by men. We (women) have the right to be safe and I would say that trumps the right to identify. So yes there should be womens spaces, and yes women should have their own category in sport. So what does that mean? Womens spaces, gender neutral spaces and mens spaces seems the most logical solution as it would also work for people who are gender neutral, none binary and pan gender. Surely that's the thing to be fighting for?

But you've just said that transwomen are women. So if one of those spaces is "womens spaces" then it must be OK according to you for transwomen to enter it, surely?

That being the nub of the problem. You can't have it both ways.

Have you seen the bra wars on Twitter?

The biggest woman hating TRA actually admitted it was not appropriate for a TW to do a fitting on his 12 year old daughter.

He then rolled back a bit (he must have realised his serious error) and claimed that you don't take off your bra when you are getting fitted for a new one (it seems that all they do in a fitting is out a tape measure round you!).

Also got me thinking - what about the poor female bra fitters that have to fit TW. That must be difficult.

Trans ‘women’ are men, no matter how much surgery they have, or how many hormones they take. They are deluded to think otherwise.

Speaking of whether there is a right for anyone to identify in any way they want.... Here is a thread that might also be relevant....

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4675169-the-right-to-identify-as-jesus-christ

Transwomen are transwomen. My sex as woman generally doesn't matter but when it matters it REALLY fucking matters. And there is no room where it matters for transwomen nor is there room for altering the language used to describe me to be more inclusive.
If people get abortions then other people can make rules about it and it isn't misogyny and the patriarchy trying to control women's fertility.
If people need smear tests then any person can conduct them and I don't get to say no about who touches my body.
Etc

Everyone does indeed have the right to identify / see themselves as they choose. What they DON'T have the right to do is force everyone else to (pretend to) see them the way they see themselves by way of threats - whether that's the threat of physical violence, arrest or loss of livelihood.

I agree, people do have the right to identify however they choose.
They don't have the right to force me to agree, that they are that identity though.

Actually I do "believe everyone has the right to identify as they choose" but how that operates in the real world has to be a negotiation and it has to recognise that if there will be a conflict of rights, others can object and their objections must be genuinely accounted for and have to be part of any solution.

This means that the expression of some identities will be restricted to the home of the identifiers or private spaces where that is sanctioned.

I agree that third spaces are the obvious solution.

If someone feels they are more female than their genitalia suggests

What do you mean by this? I genuinely don't understand what "more female" means. You either are female or male, unless you are one of the handful of people where it is genuinely unclear.

Males can wear lipstick and high heels in the men's room and squeal in high-pitched tones on male athletic teams.

So I believe everyone has the right to identify as they choose.

I don't. Otherwise, why can't I identify as a lion and live in the zoo? Or identify as a 7 year old and join the year 3 class at the local primary school?

the problem is, for TW it’s the women in the spaces that make the spaces worth being in

if it was genuinely about safety & not violating women’s boundaries third spaces would be the answer & stonewall would have campaigned for them

but it isn’t so they don’t

"...as little as the occurrence in a man's head that in some way he perceives himself as being a woman or as having some kind of feminine essence."

Or actually just the decision to say that he does?

So do I have the right to identify as being black by putting on some make up and act as though I’ve been ‘feeling’ black all my life and know how it feels being black etc. Yeah but no but. Trans women are not women. Let’s leave it at that.