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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle

814 replies

DerekFaker · 22/01/2023 22:40

About the Scottish gender recognition bill

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lifeturnsonadime · 29/01/2023 23:05

@Spero

Please have my wholehearted thanks too.

With all of the awful threats to women that we've seen recently, it is quite obvious that there is a personal risk in your appearances and correct decision to accurately talk about the sex of these men.

Just a question , if I may, how do we overcome this issue of the idea of sex in the Equality Act having been redefined 'by stealth' to mean both biological and legal sex?

I know we have this petition for clear definitions but, it seems to me, that our language has become so muddled that segregation by 'sex' could include males with a GRC?

This question is for Sarah and for everyone else. It seems that there is still such a hurdle to climb to protect women from having men in our spaces.

DarkDayforMN · 29/01/2023 22:11

I know Posie is effective enoughi going it alone and doesn’t need JB’s approval, but I can’t help but think they are missing out on what could be a beautiful friendship.

i was just thinking the other day that I admire them for very similar reasons! Difficult, bolshy women who call it like they see it, but with a healthy streak of pragmatism that prioritises getting shit done above everything else. And both extremely effective at fighting for women’s rights.

Maybe it’s not easy for two personalities like that to get on with each other?

FigRollsAlly · 29/01/2023 22:09

IcakethereforeIam · 29/01/2023 22:07

Oh, Sarah. I've teared up.

So have I, very moving.

IcakethereforeIam · 29/01/2023 22:07

Oh, Sarah. I've teared up.

Rightsraptor · 29/01/2023 22:06

Oh Sarah! 😢So very sad and apt.

Spero · 29/01/2023 22:04

IcakethereforeIam · 29/01/2023 21:15

Many of us went through a 'be kind' stage. I can imagine JB thinking she was going insane, if she felt she was the only person seeing it. There was no MN for support. I wonder if there was a combination of bullying and love bombing?

I'll look up that other book, it'd be interesting to see the warnings from history.

I've finally found the time to watch Sarah on GB News🍾Does anyone know what was on the badge she was wearing?

For our sisters, who were just walking home.

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle
Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 29/01/2023 22:01

I’ve just waded through Robin’s blog. So glad I had a glass of wine in my hand to stop me falling asleep - can’t waste good wine by spilling it. I now know women can’t wear Docs, they have their nails done regularly and wear pink or lilac. I must not be a woman.
The surgeries sounded horrifically painful. I hope Robin is still pleased with the outcomes after going through so much pain.
Sleep beckons now so the threads linked will be tomorrows reading. Night all.

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 21:58

Yes, ClogLady, that sounds like it would be the best thing all around.

TheClogLady · 29/01/2023 21:24

Saying stuff you don’t believe due to bullying and coercion is understandable (or even just social pressure/niceties. I’ve never meant ‘Amen’ on the occasions I’ve said it)

This sort of coercion is what large swathes of the western world have been contending with privately, whereas JB was subjected to it publicly.

A Red Guard style struggle session sort of situation.

If you’ve read the IPSO thread from yesterday you will have seen that it’s my understanding that Paris Lees has been a key figure in training the print and screen media in protrans doublespeak. I expect Julie’s livelihood as a writer has genuinely been at risk at various points during the last decade and it’s hard to be an effective campaigner for vulnerable women if you are shunned by media bookers and newspaper editors.

JB has had to play a long game to even get in sight of the 🥅. Today she scored a blinding goal.

I’d really like it if JB would give Posie the benefit of the doubt, just enough to go out for dinner together or something similar, they can hash it all out without any of us (or the TRAs) spying on them, see where they end up at the end of the night.

I know Posie is effective enoughi going it alone and doesn’t need JB’s approval, but I can’t help but think they are missing out on what could be a beautiful friendship.

EndlessTea · 29/01/2023 21:18

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 20:51

That is pitiful indeed.

I’ve been hunting for the video and I think it has been deleted. Here is a link to a Radfem Hub article which linked to it and you can see the confusion at the time reading the article and the comments https://radicalhubarchives.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/what-about-the-men-now-and-then/

There’s also a painful reminder that censorious bastards got Gender Trender taken down from Wordpress so you can’t follow the link.

IcakethereforeIam · 29/01/2023 21:15

Many of us went through a 'be kind' stage. I can imagine JB thinking she was going insane, if she felt she was the only person seeing it. There was no MN for support. I wonder if there was a combination of bullying and love bombing?

I'll look up that other book, it'd be interesting to see the warnings from history.

I've finally found the time to watch Sarah on GB News🍾Does anyone know what was on the badge she was wearing?

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 20:51

That is pitiful indeed.

EndlessTea · 29/01/2023 20:46

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 20:42

Was just about to say The Whole Woman!

But I didn't know that JB had written on this in 2004. It was later than that when she told Paris Lees that men could be lesbians so I assumed she had been mostly ignoring it before then. I know she apologised to him for her previous comments on gender so maybe that's what she's referring to.

Anyway, good to see her on GBN saying sensible things. I am going to put aside my personal dislike of her and try to take her on face value for what she says from now on. We all make mistakes, after all.

It was later than that when she told Paris Lees that men could be lesbians

Yes, I remember her being coerced. I think she just wanted all the bullying to stop and started saying things to appease the coercive controlling men. It was pitiful to witness.

EndlessTea · 29/01/2023 20:43

At the end of the day. It is fucking offensive isn’t it?

We now know how awful Jan Morris was. I can see how April Ashley, Wendy Carlos and any others would have really pissed off feminists at the time.

I think GG referred to the female impersonation as ‘ghastly’. Seems pretty visceral.

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 20:42

Was just about to say The Whole Woman!

But I didn't know that JB had written on this in 2004. It was later than that when she told Paris Lees that men could be lesbians so I assumed she had been mostly ignoring it before then. I know she apologised to him for her previous comments on gender so maybe that's what she's referring to.

Anyway, good to see her on GBN saying sensible things. I am going to put aside my personal dislike of her and try to take her on face value for what she says from now on. We all make mistakes, after all.

ditalini · 29/01/2023 20:40

EndlessTea · 29/01/2023 20:38

And Janice Raymond was even more prescient in 1979 with The Transsexual Empire.

Snap! And reading that Wikipedia article (I should have known better) it looks like the usual suspects have been on the editing case.

EndlessTea · 29/01/2023 20:38

ditalini · 29/01/2023 20:34

The Whole Woman came out in 1999 and GG covered it there. The writing was on the wall and she did warn us.

And Janice Raymond was even more prescient in 1979 with The Transsexual Empire.

PIKNIK20 · 29/01/2023 20:38

Robin is wearing a mini skirt and manspreading...

ditalini · 29/01/2023 20:37

And Janice Raymond wrote The Transexual Empire in 1979.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transsexual_Empire?wprov=sfla1

ditalini · 29/01/2023 20:34

IcakethereforeIam · 29/01/2023 20:32

JB had a link on her twitter to and article she wrote in 2004 for the Guardian (imagine) about gender and lesbians. I linked it on the general conversation thread. I was impressed she was writing about it 20 years ago, around the time of the GRA I suppose. If GG was warning us further back than that then she was prescient indeed and I wish more people had listened.

I hope I can learn more about the history of this, when it is history.

The Whole Woman came out in 1999 and GG covered it there. The writing was on the wall and she did warn us.

IcakethereforeIam · 29/01/2023 20:32

JB had a link on her twitter to and article she wrote in 2004 for the Guardian (imagine) about gender and lesbians. I linked it on the general conversation thread. I was impressed she was writing about it 20 years ago, around the time of the GRA I suppose. If GG was warning us further back than that then she was prescient indeed and I wish more people had listened.

I hope I can learn more about the history of this, when it is history.

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 19:34

DameMaud · 29/01/2023 18:57

Brilliant Seth MacFarlane parody/homage to Star Trek. There was a whole appreciative thread on it on here.
Highly recommend Beastly

www.disneyplus.com/en-gb/series/the-orville/xJDRPuAtRWxz

Fab, thank you!

Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 29/01/2023 19:29

MmePoppySeedDefage · 29/01/2023 16:30

Here's a share token for the article about RMW mentioned earlier:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c8837b85-8970-4ee6-8385-62ac20671408?shareToken=5e237791178654a7bff839b55d3aa9400_

Grew his hair and wore nail varnish it says, and Lo! He was a she and walked on the wild side; only with the same voice 'cos £££.

Thank you. Interesting read.

DameMaud · 29/01/2023 18:57

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 18:51

No - what's The Orville? (Surely nothing to do with the puppet...)

Brilliant Seth MacFarlane parody/homage to Star Trek. There was a whole appreciative thread on it on here.
Highly recommend Beastly

www.disneyplus.com/en-gb/series/the-orville/xJDRPuAtRWxz

beastlyslumber · 29/01/2023 18:51

DameMaud · 29/01/2023 17:58

Have you seen her in 'The Orville'? Was such a wonderful surprise to realise it was her.

No - what's The Orville? (Surely nothing to do with the puppet...)