Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle

I'm going to go against the tide here, but I think Robin has a lovely speaking voice. Reminded me a bit of that bloke off Cabin Pressure.

Was that a performance plaid, or was it so cold in that studio there was a need to bundle up?

I think Sarah handled the pronouns very diplomatically, although sometimes there were more Robins than a Christmas mantlepiece.

I think Sarah's interpretations of the voice remarks was fair and she apologised fully and promptly when corrected. Something some tras (looking at you LRM) could learn from.

Surely if they are clients of RMW, then there are issues? Why would they be clients of a barrister if there wasn't court cases?

(Sorry if that was a thread derail - but it was RMW who mentioned Sussex and Edinburgh in the interview and said there was no evidence that this was really a problem, which is contradictory when it's a service user bringing the case.)

Oh rabbitwoman that sounds so awful

I'm curious about this. Why did Sarah resort to verbal gymnastics?

Utimately, @Spero can answer for herself @oldwomanwhoruns (love the user name, btw!) but I saw it as Ms Philimore trying to be respectful and polite, so not "misgendering" a transwoman, but also not prepared to deny reality.

It was a very good discussion, and makes me wish that the #nodebate mantra was banished to oblivion. We need debate.

*RobinMoiraWhite · Yesterday 10:09

I care because I remember so very clearly how horrible a time it was for me.*

If you are reading, Robin, let me quickly tell you about my puberty.

I was nine when I started my periods in the early 1980s. It was so humiliating. The other children - boys and girls - were morbidly fascinated and used to lift up my skirt to try and see my pad, or the blood. I was followed into the girls loos by a gang of boys once, who wrestled me to the floor, took my pad and went running into the playground with it, laughing and waving it about. Thank God the assault wasn't worse.....

I also had C cup breasts. I was tiny, the smallest in my class, with this woman's body and other kids would poke, stare, point, ask questions. I was continually followed around by kids snapping my bra strap.

The teachers were utterly useless, they had no idea what to do and I was never offered any privacy. I had to change for PE with everyone else - boys only on the other side of a flimsy partition, used to peer through the holes at me getting undressed and the girls around me used to think it was funny to snatch away the clothes or towels I was trying to cover myself up with so the boys could see.

I would have done ANYTHING to be spared all that. I would have gobbled up puberty blockers. If I was that 9 year old girl today I would be consuming tiktok and other social media, I would be begging for another choice.

Turns out, though, although it was horrible it was actually completely the correct puberty for me and I am so glad I am now a fully intact, functioning woman - albeit peri menopausal, a whole other story, hey Robin?

I'm curious about this. Why did Sarah resort to verbal gymnastics?

After I watched Free Speech Nation on YouTube yesterday I left it on auto play and ended up listening to some GB News segment with Laurence Fox.

He was talking about this subject (I forget what exactly) and suddenly paused and said ‘Ofcom face’ then carried on!

I appreciated Sarah’s studied pronoun avoidance as it what I frequently have to do when our back bedroom is full of Genderweird/Genderspecial teenagers 😬

Well if Robin gets to crash Sarah's support thread we get to crash this thread on Sarah's behalf.

Bravo, Boiled!

Talking of I am Sarah,

Off support her thread

STANDING RIGHT BESIDE YOU

I know you probably sometimes feel, you are doing this on your own.
Left to fight the Righteous Mighty(!?!), to get them to atone.

But, if anything these last few weeks have proved beyond a doubt,
for the women here, the one name, that to them does call and shout

is @IamSarah who is fighting for us all, for that most sacred of places,
and the right for ALL US WOMEN to have bloody female spaces!

So we might be faceless names on the mobile in your hand,
but remember, we are with you, fighting bullies of this land.

So when you feel down, think the fight too much and wish the whole thing done,
picture all us women, gardening beside you, in the glorious noontime sun.

We’ll be there to pay the bills, provide moral support; some will hold your hand for real too.
But through the rest of all this shit, remember @IamSarah
WE ARE STANDING RIGHT BESIDE YOU SHOUTING WE ARE SARAH TOO.

Yes @EdithStourton and that Robin calculated the risks of modifying Robin's voice to be too high and that Robin's ability to perform Robin's paid employment may be jeopardised and so they decided not to risk surgery.

And yet, Robin advocates that children and young people, who have not yet even set foot on the lowest rings of a career ladder, should risk absolutely everything in a situation in which they not only cannot comprehend the risks because they lack the cognitive ability , life experience, decision making skills etc but they also can't possibly know the impact of medicalisation and surgery because it's basically largely experimental and the data to weigh up the possible outcomes doesn't even exist. They may have issues with work and employment forever if repeated surgeries, life long drug dependence and potential cognitive impacts of treatment are part of the fall out.

I know Edinburgh has a transwoman CEO, who I at first assumed was recruited to support specialist services for trans people but went the full TWAW, no single sex services and if women don't like it then "reframe their trauma". I didn't think there was anything active going on right now. In the meantime I am watching Sussex with interest, and with concern for the woman at the centre of it, who has had her family and her livelihood threatened just for wanting a women-only service among the assorted mixed-sex groups already on offer.

It reminds me of the famous scene from Oliver Twist:

The gruel disappeared; the boys whispered each other, and winked at Oliver; while his next neighbours nudged him. Child as he was, he was desperate with hunger, and reckless with misery. He rose from the table; and advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand, said: somewhat alarmed at his own temerity:
'Please, sir, I want some more.'
The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupified astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear.
'What!' said the master at length, in a faint voice.
'Please, sir,' replied Oliver, 'I want some more.'
The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arm; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.
The board were sitting in solemn conclave, when Mr Bumble rushed into the room in great excitement, and addressing the gentleman in the high chair, said,
'Mr Limbkins, I beg your pardon, sir! Oliver Twist has asked for more!'
There was a general start. Horror was depicted on every countenance.
'For MORE!' said Mr Limbkins. 'Compose yourself, Bumble, and answer me distinctly. Do I understand that he asked for more, after he had eaten the supper allotted by the dietary?'
'He did, sir,' replied Bumble.
'That boy will be hung,' said the gentleman in the white waistcoat. 'I know that boy will be hung.'
charlesdickenspage.com/twist-more.html

I imagine the Sussex Survivors' defense team - "Sara Summers has aked for a women-only group !?!".

What I drew from the last minute or so of the video was that being a barrister matters more to Robin than sounding like a woman.

Oh, I'm mad alright, Robin. Just not in the way you meant.

We may be temporarily, in this period of strange enlightenment, find our speech somewhat curtailed. (whilst some of those who disagree hold up decapitate terf signs, and men roam women prisons) But this to shall pass. And no matter what, whether this takes months or years, no one gets to decide or force what we are thinking and know in our heads.

The truth is the truth. Even if we aren't allowed to say it right now.

I've just watched and listened. Such a good interview and really impressed that the interviewer really knew their stuff and was able to actually facilitate the discussion. Really glad everyone spoke clearly and not over each other. Thanks to all involved.

Really interesting that the wins for RMW are spelling out that we already have no actual ability to ensure our safety and privacy in single sex spaces, services and sports and they are ok with that. "It's not me guv, it's the law," The Law that you're advocating for and not speaking up against despite the obvious dangers and harm's (including to trans people).

Robin, you say, repeatedly that you are unaware of issues or game playing around self ID, and you present the prisons issues as satisfactorily dealt with by the PS and you are unaware of loopholes being exploited. You were given 2 examples only moments before in the interview and we can help you with more - Karen White, Katie Dolatowski, Sally Dixon... Try and remember these so you don't constantly say there are no examples when there are loads.

Yes, you are right of course, @AmaryllisNightAndDay and @NotBadConsidering .
Sarah was fabulous, and, as you say, made her point rather well.

It's just so frustrating that we are prevented from stating the bleedin' obvious...

It is enlightening if this male barrister has used the Edinburgh Rape Crisis as a benchmark of ‘no issues’.

Or maybe it is selective reading by someone who relies on only reading ‘safe’ sources so as not to understand the material reality. That women have already stated publicly they are self-excluding. From a rape crisis centre set up for women! That is the opposite of ‘no evidence -no issue’!.

RobinMoiraWhite · Yesterday 10:09

I care because I remember so very clearly how horrible a time it was for me.

It is horrible for most. Puberty is a physically, mentally, socially and emotionally disruptive process for everyone. The details may vary, of course, but the whole point of the process is to reshape every aspect of your life and body - that's never easy.

With the hindsight of half a century I might be permitted to know what the right choices for me would have been all those years ago.

But I agree that making the wrong choices would be just as bad.

Hindsight is not foresight. What you know now is not what you knew - or could have known - then.

Im not medically qualified but those that are tell me that some young people know themselves well enough to make that choice. I believe I would have been one of those.

See above. You may belive it, but you can't know it.

Studies show that the vast majority of children who feel trans before or during puberty will - in the absence of medical intervention - not do so by the time they are adults. Many will be gay/lesbian but virtually all will be comfortable with their sex.

There is no way to know beforehand which small fraction will still want to transition once they are fully mature. You may know now that you are one of those, but you could not have known that then.

So to close off that choice would, in my view, be very cruel.

Every choice closes off some possible futures. Some more irreversibly than others.

You went through puberty but were able to transition later. Children who are prevented from going through puberty live with permanent effects - if they have made the wrong choice not all of these are reversible.

Would you have swapped your few years of uncomfortable puberty for lifelong medical problems, the loss of your fertility and children, the loss of your career, the loss of the ability to form adult relationships or have sexual feelings, the loss of a lot of surgical transition options leaving only riskier and less successful techniques....?

But every young person contemplating such a choice should have the best assistance available, given the consequences

On that we agree (at least on the principle; I suspect we disagree on the details of what 'best assistance' consists of).

I thought the clumsy language resulting from avoiding pronouns demonstrated the difficulties rather nicely. It was obvious that the sex of one person was being pussyfooted round, and it was obvious how that affected the flow of the discussion. The opposite sex individual may well consider that a victory, but it actually proves, rather starkly, how much women have to change their language in order to appease the opposite sex.

Not a good look, frankly.

X post Amaryllis

I'm curious about this. Why did Sarah resort to verbal gymnastics?

I suspect it’s because once you use accurate pronouns for a male they and their activist supporters latch onto that and scream “hate speech!” and that then becomes the entire focus when discussing the outcome of the discussion. It wouldn’t matter how much sense Sarah spoke, how much truth or accuracy or considered her opinions were, or how much nonsense RMW spoke in return, all that would be discussed is when it was witch burning time for “misgendering” after setting the gender Stasi police onto her.

It’s an effective tactic from TRAs but sometimes you just have to play the game. Like I do here. I never refer to males as she in real life.

I'm curious about this. Why did Sarah resort to verbal gymnastics?

My guess - diplomacy. Sarah could have used whatever pronouns she liked but it would have distracted from every other point she wanted to make. In a TV debate Sarah needed to be courteous or at least not choose words that she and everyone else know would cause offense. RMW would be able to take the high ground and make a fuss and make Sarah look spiteful. Describing a person who is present with language you know they don't accept, is deliberate offense.

It's not the same as having to call a rapist "she" because most people don't expect to extend courtesy to rapists or tell a social fib to appease someone they're accusing in court. But for opponents in a TV debate, they do.

Possibly in Robin's rider that Robin not be misgendered? But Robin can read between the lines, can't Robin?

#whobungledthebundle

I'm curious about this. Why did Sarah resort to verbal gymnastics?

Yes, here on Mumsnet we are careful about pronoun use. Them's the rules. And I think that 'misgendering' will still earn one a ban on Twitter, so the same thing applies.
But Sarah was on GB News, which do not enforce this.

So why the pussy-footing around?

Doesn't the Maya Forestater judgement mean that our beliefs are valid? We cannot be made to say that the Gender God exists.

Our speech should not be compelled. I really think that we should be holding the line on this.

100% nailed it.