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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle

814 replies

DerekFaker · 22/01/2023 22:40

About the Scottish gender recognition bill

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 14:17

@FlirtsWithRhinos

Bravo. Well said.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/01/2023 14:01

I think a post I made on the media representation thread is relavent to the question of whether relaxing GRC rules creates additional dangers/challenges for female people:

Why is relaxing the GRC criteria to make it effectively self ID a concern when trans women are already appropriating female spaces, resources and our political and social voices without one?

The gender supremacy movement (this being the movement for the supremacy of gender identity over sex) has mutated its concept of gender over time. The pattern has been to gain a legal concession based on one assumed, but not legally defined, concept of gender, then assert that right applies to people using a different and much wider concept of gender.

So, medically transitioned transsexuals were already living as women. However their actual sex, male, would be revealed by their legal documents. They wanted this concealed for their own privacy so the law gave them a legal fiction to allow them to conceal their birth sex. They didn't need the GRC to live as women, it didn't "change" anything.... except the tiny little detail that it established the concept of a legal sex which can be different to your birth sex.

The next step was to flip this concept 180. GS position is now not that a GRC is a legal fiction, changing documentation to facilitate a major change in a person's life, it's a legal record of fact, correcting documention that has been wrong since birth.

In other words, Legal sex was established as a legal fiction to disguise the sex of male people living AS women but the GS movement now uses it to claim the law recognizes male people can BE women.

So the concept the activists present of the trans woman mutates from the concept under which the GRA was shaped, ie men who are compelled to live "as" women, wanting to live as passing facsimiles of women and needing a GRC to maintain the il/de/lusion - to men who just are women, and who can be as openly, obviously male as they want because their gender isn't related to their body.

But now, the GRC, established as a legal fiction concealing birth sex to support the "as a women" trans women, becomes a problem because it was based in the assumption that the trans women needs the legal fiction to hide her maleness. In that model, her need for it - her "womanhood" if you will - has to be in some way proved or earned, and that doesn't match the new, was-always-a-woman construction where maleness is fine and a GRC is not a fiction for privacy, but a validation of the fact that she is and always was a woman.

So now the demand is for the law to change again to "catch up" with what trans women are already doing. "It won't make a difference, after all they are already in your spaces, and taking your resources, and replacing over your experiences with their own stories of womanhood"

But what it does do is move that baseline another jump, from a GRC being a legal fiction to preserve the privacy of someone living "as a" woman, to a enshrinement in law that a male person is a woman if that is what (s)he says (s)he is. The concept of womanhood is relocated in the law's eyes from the body to the mind/will, not just for trans women but for all women.

Far from the GRC being "just a bit of admin", Women as a legal class based on their sex and the needs of their sex have been entirely un/redefined by it.

So, the important thing isn't what someone can do the day they get their GRC that they couldn't do the day before. It's what further encroachment of male wants on female resources and lives will this new, legal reconception of gender will it be used to normalise next?

DialSquare · 24/01/2023 13:51

DialSquare · 24/01/2023 13:50

The remarks made about me on social media say rather more about those making them than they say about me.

Yes, it shows that they know that males can never be women.

If you want a discussion, it needs to be respectful or I won’t be there.

Regrettably, many Mumsnetters can’t keep to that, so I’m only an occasional visitor.

Has any Mumsnetter accused you of being mad?

Bold fail. Second paragraph is my response to the first.

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 13:51

I trust it will be noted that I don’t engage in personal attacks

I again just want at this point to remember what I am Sarah is currently going through at the hands of one of RMWs rape crisis centre clients.

Robin came on her thread which was very intimidating for the OP. They came to correct some posters misunderstanding of an issue that was nothing to do with Sarah's case.

robin could have gone into the relevant Alison Bailey thread mentioned it there and asked for someone to go to Sarah's thread and correct people.

Robin could have got a friend or work colleague to post on Sarah's thread correcting the mistake.

Instead robin chose to come onto a thread about an issue that had nothing to do with the issue of the thread, knowing that would cause the OP and many posters distress.

Robin then posted more times despite the fact it was pointed out to Robin that maybe this wasn't the right thread for them and that their actions could be construed as bullying or intimidating.

Even that didn't stop Robin.

So again for Sarah

STANDING RIGHT BESIDE YOU

I know you probably sometimes feel, you are doing this on your own.
Left to fight the Righteous Mighty(!?!), to get them to atone.

But, if anything these last few weeks have proved beyond a doubt,
for the women here, the one name, that to them does call and shout

is @IamSarah who is fighting for us all, for that most sacred of places,
and the right for ALL US WOMEN to have bloody female spaces!

So we might be faceless names on the mobile in your hand,
but remember, we are with you, fighting bullies of this land.

So when you feel down, think the fight too much and wish the whole thing done,
picture all us women, gardening beside you, in the glorious noontime sun.

We’ll be there to pay the bills, provide moral support; some will hold your hand for real too.
But through the rest of all this shit, remember @IamSarah
WE ARE STANDING RIGHT BESIDE YOU SHOUTING WE ARE SARAH TOO.

DialSquare · 24/01/2023 13:50

The remarks made about me on social media say rather more about those making them than they say about me.

Yes, it shows that they know that males can never be women.

If you want a discussion, it needs to be respectful or I won’t be there.

Regrettably, many Mumsnetters can’t keep to that, so I’m only an occasional visitor.

Has any Mumsnetter accused you of being mad?

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 13:49

More info on Barbie Kardashian here, courtesy of Tish:

gendercriticalwoman.blog/2022/01/19/barbie-kardashion/

Tish’s source is this judicial transcript:

gendercriticalwoman.blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Barbie-Kardashian.pdf

I can’t imagine many MtF trans prisoners who qualify for a ye olde gatekept GRC would want to be locked in a cell overnight with Barbie? Especially if they ‘pass’ as female…

So why support self ID?

The public funds spent on keeping Barbie technically in a female facility but separate due to the enormous safeguarding issues (24 hour 2 to one supervision?) must be eye watering.
Barbie would probably have a better quality of life on a vulnerable males unit, near-permanent segregation isn’t going to be helping remedy Barbie’s mental issues much either (there is a reason segregation is considered a form of mental torture).

Tallisker · 24/01/2023 13:47

I am sure it will be noticed that you never answer questions and you are horrible to women.

And you just can't help yourself, can you? You have to shove your two penn'orth in. No empathy with or for women.

AlisonDonut · 24/01/2023 13:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 13:35

Whilst we are on the subject of prisons.

It seems, although haven't confirmed yet this person has been found guilty.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11667731/Transgender-rapist-accused-attacking-women-transitioning-vulnerable-court-hears.html

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle
RobinMoiraWhite · 24/01/2023 13:35

Spero · 24/01/2023 11:11

It was not conscious. I have always asserted that I would use preferred pronouns to be 'polite' but when the time came, my tongue rebelled. I simply could not refer to 'she' and 'her' with regard to someone who presents as masculine. I don't think this is about bigotry, I think it is about how my brain is wired to understand and process language. I accept that 'gratuitous and indiscriminate' 'misgendering' as per Forstater EAT judgment ought to be avoided but I am concerned to note that I am now accused of 'disguised hate speech' and 'degendering' for using Robin's name!

It seems that women can't win.

It also seems to me that politeness and consideration cut both ways. If Robin had been able to concede that it was wrong to call women 'completely mad' who argue that there is a tension between the rights of women and the rights of men to be called women, then possibly I would have made more of an effort to afford Robin the pronouns Robin wants.

But it was very disappointing to see that a straightforward question did not received the courtesy of a straightforward response. This continued demonisation of women as 'mad' and 'hateful' for raising arguments now confirmed as legitimate by Lord Hope, the EHRC, the UK government etc etc etc has got to stop. I don't think anyone has any legitimacy demanding preferred pronouns when they are prepared to be in denial about the legitimacy of women's concerns.

But I continue to applaud Robin for attending - I have noted with some horror and disgust the really revolting comments many have made on line about Robin's appearance. No one should have to be subjected to that and it does 'our side' no credit. But the issue is and remains for me that Robin presents as a man, that is what I see and hear. The only solution that Robin offered is to ensure that children are saved from this by 'going through the right puberty'.

If you are born male, you simply cannot go through any other puberty but a male puberty. This is what needs to be told loud and clear to any child who is being encouraged to go down that route. I am sorry that Robin has been denied the opportunity to have the kind of voice Robin would have preferred. I have been denied the opportunity to live as an able bodied person. Sometimes, we just have to suck it up. Regardless, we have no rights to demand that others are simply bit players on the stage of our own particular fantasies.

The remarks made about me on social media say rather more about those making them than they say about me.

I was asked to attend to discuss the issues related to Scottish Reform. How my voice, appearance or an unnuanced ‘sound bite’ from a much longer previous discussion are relevant to that is not clear to me. I trust it will be noted that I don’t engage in personal attacks.

That has not gone unnoticed in other comments I have received. If you want a discussion, it needs to be respectful or I won’t be there.

Regrettably, many Mumsnetters can’t keep to that, so I’m only an occasional visitor.

AlisonDonut · 24/01/2023 13:33

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/01/2023 13:18

There are no examples which support restricting the ‘Scottish’ route to a GRC as causing additional danger. That was the subject of the discussion.

Give over. You know there are hundreds of examples. Stop lying. Oh hang on...

OldCrone · 24/01/2023 13:32

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 13:22

Barbie Kardashian was refused a gender Dysphoria diagnosis by GIDS yet was able to self ID into the female prison estate under the Irish system.

Is the proposed Scottish system different to the Irish one?

I was just going to make the same point. The MoJ guidelines for transgender prisoners says that "all individuals who are transgender must be initially allocated to part of the estate which matches their legally recognised gender"

So it makes a difference whether a prisoner has a GRC or not.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf

If any man (including a sex offender) who was born in Scotland can acquire a birth certificate saying he is female, that potentially greatly increases the number of males who will be sent to women's prisons. How does this not cause increased danger to female prisoners?

IdaGoodnight · 24/01/2023 13:23

What I took from the interview:

  1. RMW refusal to give a personal perspective answer. Hides behind an interpretation of the law ie it’s within the law to provide single sex provision but institutions are choosing not to provide them; or these Institutions are the best risk assessors / interpreters of the law. Are they? <paraphrasing>. The equivalent of; “not my fault, gov, them’s the rules”. But who influences these institutions to change their behaviours? Oh, I don’t know - hitting a rocky wall here…
  2. Lack of depth / follow ups to points ie RMW’s Rape Crisis clients eg Sussex. It would have been better to follow the breadcrumbs and ask / point out the lack of natal female only services in the county. That would have stuck in new to the subject peoples minds. And why is the Sussex provider fighting the request to provide single sex services v why is RMW choosing to defend that position. Such an interesting question…

Kudos to Sarah for clear answers and no compelled speech.

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 13:22

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/01/2023 13:18

There are no examples which support restricting the ‘Scottish’ route to a GRC as causing additional danger. That was the subject of the discussion.

Barbie Kardashian was refused a gender Dysphoria diagnosis by GIDS yet was able to self ID into the female prison estate under the Irish system.

Is the proposed Scottish system different to the Irish one?

MissPollysFitDolly · 24/01/2023 13:21

And yes, Spero you were amazing. So calm and articulate. Thank you.

MissPollysFitDolly · 24/01/2023 13:20

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 13:01

To quote a FOJN post from yesterday…

😂

Robin is male.

Annoyingly I've been seeing the terms 'legal sex' and 'biological sex' used more frequently, I hope we won't start having to qualify our statements.

oldwomanwhoruns · 24/01/2023 13:19

It's just not equitable, is it? The men get to say what they like, but the women have to guard their speech.

@Spero you were wonderful. Thank you from all of us 💐

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/01/2023 13:18

MorvenOfMalvern · 24/01/2023 09:39

I've just watched and listened. Such a good interview and really impressed that the interviewer really knew their stuff and was able to actually facilitate the discussion. Really glad everyone spoke clearly and not over each other. Thanks to all involved.

Really interesting that the wins for RMW are spelling out that we already have no actual ability to ensure our safety and privacy in single sex spaces, services and sports and they are ok with that. "It's not me guv, it's the law," The Law that you're advocating for and not speaking up against despite the obvious dangers and harm's (including to trans people).

Robin, you say, repeatedly that you are unaware of issues or game playing around self ID, and you present the prisons issues as satisfactorily dealt with by the PS and you are unaware of loopholes being exploited. You were given 2 examples only moments before in the interview and we can help you with more - Karen White, Katie Dolatowski, Sally Dixon... Try and remember these so you don't constantly say there are no examples when there are loads.

There are no examples which support restricting the ‘Scottish’ route to a GRC as causing additional danger. That was the subject of the discussion.

JellySaurus · 24/01/2023 13:17

Notaflippinclue · 24/01/2023 12:57

Is Robin a female?

Robin's voice is unmodified. It is in the natural range expected for an individual with the same chromosomes as an adult human male.

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 13:01

Notaflippinclue · 24/01/2023 12:57

Is Robin a female?

To quote a FOJN post from yesterday…

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle
Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 12:59

IcakedefargeIam · 24/01/2023 11:57

Sounds amazing, the corner where my tree was sat, still looks very empty.

I bought a pack of wee robins and I hide them round the living room for people to find, the kids, visitors, the guy who came to fix the boiler...you get the idea.

I'm usually still finding them come Easter.

I sympathise with Sarah's predicament. I find it impossible to use preferred pronouns on this board. At least I have distance and time to compose my sentence. I'd be merrily misgendering away were it not for the monitors. I think irl, I'd wind up sounding even more like a gibbering idiot...or I'd crack my jaw. Mental and verbal whiplash, disconnect between what you know, can see, can hear and what you 'know' you should say.

You could probably find a life size cardboard cut out of someone you admire! And stick that in the spot. Then just put tinsel over theirs shoulders at Christmas time and stuck a Santa 🎅 hat on it.

I used to afford some posters the courtesy of using their preferred pronouns. And then one of those posters plopped onto a thread I was on one day and were really disingenuous about their reason for being on the thread.

It was really off, and extremely intimidating. I felt so sorry for the OP.

I can't remember which poster it was now, or which thread, but at that point I was "no. That's beyond acceptable. I don't care what you want I'm done"

Wish I could remember which thread it was.

turbonerd · 24/01/2023 12:59

But how can RMW be considered polite at all when RMW actually did say women are mad for raising these concerns?
Mad Women?

That is not polite at all.
That is on a par with «hysterical», which is (historically) something only women can be.
It is derogatory to women. And RMW is clearly thinking themselves not mad.

Notaflippinclue · 24/01/2023 12:57

Is Robin a female?

Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/01/2023 12:48

@IcakedefargeIam

I agree with you, and during Allison's tribunal, i sometimes heard a rather nice and melodious voice; and it was clearly a masculine voice.

I was curious about who it belonged to and was just about to ask the question in the thread, when i realised it was actually Robin's voice.

And that's how i knew the 'here we go' comment didn't come from Robin.

heathspeedwell · 24/01/2023 12:48

As a survivor of sexual abuse, the fact is that I would be petrified if I was in a cubicle in the toilets at Sainsbury's and I heard Robin's male voice booming out next to me. I think it's incredibly selfish for any male person to encroach on female spaces in that way.

Sadly I get the impression that even if Robin knew that Robin was causing women to feel extremely uncomfortable, Robin wouldn't care.