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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle

814 replies

DerekFaker · 22/01/2023 22:40

About the Scottish gender recognition bill

OP posts:
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35
JellySaurus · 24/01/2023 17:08

The way I look at it, if a burglar comes into my house, steals my possessions and trashes the place, I'm not going to sit him down with a nice cup of tea and a biscuit. For some reason, women are still being expected to make tea and biscuits and the burglars get quite stroppy when we don't.

And if we lock our doors and windows against potential burglars, we're told we are being bigoted and defaming all men.

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/01/2023 17:02

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

Wellies54 · 24/01/2023 16:57

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 16:12

That has not gone unnoticed in other comments I have received. If you want a discussion, it needs to be respectful or I won’t be there.

But it an be argued (and I would indeed argue) that none of what you’re doing, what anyone involved in GRA reform etc is doing, is respectful to women.

You disrespect us by the very act of - as a biologically male person - appropriating the material reality of biologically female people and claiming it as an identity for you to use as you please. In the context of age old male oppression of female people, where males have traditionally extracted whatever resources they want from female people without concerning themselves with the issue of consent, this is just another assault on our human rights. As always, we are objects to be used by male people; not subjects with full agency.

When you make use of facilities designated for female people, and campaign for ever wider access to those facilities for more and more male people - which is the net result of GRR in tandem with self ID in general - you are again disrespecting us.

Biologically male people who respect biologically female people, and acknowledge the ways female people have been systematically hurt and disadvantaged by male rule across the generations, respect our boundaries.

I for one see no reason at all why I should respect biologically male people who don’t respect me, or biologically female people in general.

This is a very good post!

The way I look at it, if a burglar comes into my house, steals my possessions and trashes the place, I'm not going to sit him down with a nice cup of tea and a biscuit. For some reason, women are still being expected to make tea and biscuits and the burglars get quite stroppy when we don't.

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 16:51

RichardBarrister · 24/01/2023 16:34

Yes, I wonder what possible ‘risk assessment’ could look at a man that has just been convicted of two counts of rape and decide he is safe to be put in a womens prison.

There are a few male born trans people with a history of violence and/or sexual offences in Cornton Vale now I think.

It’s not like most rapists don’t generally have a pattern of similar behaviour and we know that sexual offences have the highest reoffending rate.

Unless they are not ‘risk assessing’ for likelihood to rape again or the safety of the women but something else? I know there are rumours circulating that the risk assessments only look at the risks to the trans person but Keep Prisons Single Sex have said that’s not true but you do start to wonder.

Yes, I wonder what possible ‘risk assessment’ could look at a man that has just been convicted of two counts of rape and decide he is safe to be put in a womens prison.

Now come on Look at him, I mean her.

Here is a man who claims to be a woman and is obviously so hating of his male body he can't bear to be male any longer. Of course he should go into the female prison estate. Of course he's not doing this to take advantage of bad law and relishing the further chance to sexually abuse and intimidate women. That never happens.

Oh no hang on what's I see.

Yeah really a man that hates manhood and just has to be a woman.

All the women I know always have this problem, that's why they only wear leggings with longer tops. Nothing to do with hiding expanding waistlines. It's because we prefer to hide the outline of our penises.

And the activists wonder why women have had enough.

Being a woman is not something you get to choose, or put on like an outfit. You only get to be a woman if you are born female and managed to survive childhood.

And because Isla above has just as much right as a man with genuine gender dsyphoria to claim womanhood I'm afraid I can longer support any man who decides to force me to pretend in his delusion he is a woman.

A man can never be a woman. And no amount of laws forcing me to capitulate to the lie that a man can be a woman will ever ever change what I know to be fact.

no debate.

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle
MorvenOfMalvern · 24/01/2023 16:44

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/01/2023 13:18

There are no examples which support restricting the ‘Scottish’ route to a GRC as causing additional danger. That was the subject of the discussion.

The discussion was much broader than just the GRR Bill and it's impects and strayed much more broadly into the wider discussion around into single sex spaces, womens' fears around predatory men etc.

Andrew Doyle and Sarah stated multiple times that the issue is not about Trans people but about predatory males and how they will exploit loopholes. Sarah pointed out that by making it easier in any way, you risk making it easier for any men, not just easier for trans people.

AD asked twice earlier in the interview, "how do you validate self ID, if there's no way to measure it?" You didn't answer directly.

AD says something like, "you say that the fear women feel is an irrelevance, but there have been cases, haven't there, where the notion of Self ID has been exploited to commit violence against women, hasn't there?"

You then repeat womens' fears are an irrelevance. And that if we allow women to voice their concerns about self ID we risk losing sight of the real issues of male VAWG. (I believe these are all part of the same discussion tbh)

THEN

You say something like "Akua postulated a scenario where a predatory male presents as female to access a female space. OK <sceptical face> but we have 350 million people living under Self ID rules and I'm not aware of cases like that..."

If you are not aware of any cases in any self ID country where a predatory male has presented as female to access female spaces, I am very very sure examples can be found.

(I'm no audio typist so this may not be accurate and please do feel free to pick holes or correct.)

However, I would say that throughout you played down the idea that womens' fears should be given any credence, and you definitely gave the impression that the reason you support self ID is because you see no reason to consider that it has risks for women and girls, because as far as you know there's no evidence to suggest it does. You defended, quite vigorously, the way the PS carry out their risk assessments and deal with trans prisoners. You stated they are best placed to make decisions on this. And the end results of those decisions are people like Karen White, Jessica Winfield, Sally Dixon, Katie Dolatowski and today's lovely Isla. ARE you happy with all those decisions? Do you not have concerns about the women involved in these jails? Because just because you are trans, there is absolutely no requirement for you to support those convicted sex offenders being facilitated to further commit sexual assaults?

Women are saying to you that convicted sex offenders being housed in women's prisons is a problem. Our fears are not irrelevant. We are not interested in the niche legal details and pedentary as to how and why it happens because we want genuine single sex spaces, and an end to legal fictions like GRCs that allow this and absolutely no self ID.

Baldieheid · 24/01/2023 16:39

I'm not debating any more. Sex matters and a man is a man is a man.

Rainbowshit · 24/01/2023 16:37

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 16:12

That has not gone unnoticed in other comments I have received. If you want a discussion, it needs to be respectful or I won’t be there.

But it an be argued (and I would indeed argue) that none of what you’re doing, what anyone involved in GRA reform etc is doing, is respectful to women.

You disrespect us by the very act of - as a biologically male person - appropriating the material reality of biologically female people and claiming it as an identity for you to use as you please. In the context of age old male oppression of female people, where males have traditionally extracted whatever resources they want from female people without concerning themselves with the issue of consent, this is just another assault on our human rights. As always, we are objects to be used by male people; not subjects with full agency.

When you make use of facilities designated for female people, and campaign for ever wider access to those facilities for more and more male people - which is the net result of GRR in tandem with self ID in general - you are again disrespecting us.

Biologically male people who respect biologically female people, and acknowledge the ways female people have been systematically hurt and disadvantaged by male rule across the generations, respect our boundaries.

I for one see no reason at all why I should respect biologically male people who don’t respect me, or biologically female people in general.

This^^

There's is no reciprocity. All one way.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 16:35

I just don’t know how much more my heart can be broken by all this.

Rapists in women’s prisons. RAPISTS IN WOMEN’S PRISONS.

And I just watched an old video of “June Eastwood” winning the women’s mile race by a considerable margin while clearly not even trying. Young women trying to compete just being literally left behind. How demoralising must that be for them? How do you find the motivation to keep doing what you need to do to compete at that level when you know a male person can just come on and steal it out from under you?

All I can see is a big, cheating man. And yet other people (including fucking Seb Coe) watch it and see a deserving, talented woman. Apparently.

It’s all heartbreaking. I just don’t know what it’s going to take for this spell to break.

And back to RAPISTS IN WOMEN’S PRISONS.

You’d think that would be enough; but it isn’t. Nothing seems to be enough. No amount of woman hate, of harm to women and girls is enough to count, to tip the scales in our favour.

We definitely get the Olympic gold in not mattering.

RichardBarrister · 24/01/2023 16:34

Rightsraptor · 24/01/2023 16:22

So 'Isla' the Scottish double rapist is confined in a women's prison.

What risk assessment have they carried out then, Robin? The only one I suspect they have done is 'Will poor Isla be in danger locked up with the men?' I doubt any thought whatsoever was given to the women who now have to deal with him.

Beyond disgusting, beyond anything a civilised country should be doing.

Those poor, poor women.

Yes, I wonder what possible ‘risk assessment’ could look at a man that has just been convicted of two counts of rape and decide he is safe to be put in a womens prison.

There are a few male born trans people with a history of violence and/or sexual offences in Cornton Vale now I think.

It’s not like most rapists don’t generally have a pattern of similar behaviour and we know that sexual offences have the highest reoffending rate.

Unless they are not ‘risk assessing’ for likelihood to rape again or the safety of the women but something else? I know there are rumours circulating that the risk assessments only look at the risks to the trans person but Keep Prisons Single Sex have said that’s not true but you do start to wonder.

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 16:28

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 16:12

That has not gone unnoticed in other comments I have received. If you want a discussion, it needs to be respectful or I won’t be there.

But it an be argued (and I would indeed argue) that none of what you’re doing, what anyone involved in GRA reform etc is doing, is respectful to women.

You disrespect us by the very act of - as a biologically male person - appropriating the material reality of biologically female people and claiming it as an identity for you to use as you please. In the context of age old male oppression of female people, where males have traditionally extracted whatever resources they want from female people without concerning themselves with the issue of consent, this is just another assault on our human rights. As always, we are objects to be used by male people; not subjects with full agency.

When you make use of facilities designated for female people, and campaign for ever wider access to those facilities for more and more male people - which is the net result of GRR in tandem with self ID in general - you are again disrespecting us.

Biologically male people who respect biologically female people, and acknowledge the ways female people have been systematically hurt and disadvantaged by male rule across the generations, respect our boundaries.

I for one see no reason at all why I should respect biologically male people who don’t respect me, or biologically female people in general.

Everything Roaring says is spot on. It is so so disrespectful.. Be kind and respect only works if it's reciprocal.

Where's the be kind in this current movement towards women?

Rather we get we are mad, terfs, shrill, hysterical. We are told we should be not allowed in politics, threatened on the floor of parliament, told to accept men into women's spaces and prisons and sports.

How is that kind to women? How is that respectful?.

And I'm expected to bow down to the pronoun and the loss of ability to describe myself, the workings of my body, the sex I was concieved as gestated as born as grew up as live as will die as and will still be identifiable as in 10 000 years time when they dig up my remains.

No.

Fuck off

No debate

Rightsraptor · 24/01/2023 16:22

So 'Isla' the Scottish double rapist is confined in a women's prison.

What risk assessment have they carried out then, Robin? The only one I suspect they have done is 'Will poor Isla be in danger locked up with the men?' I doubt any thought whatsoever was given to the women who now have to deal with him.

Beyond disgusting, beyond anything a civilised country should be doing.

Those poor, poor women.

DialSquare · 24/01/2023 16:14

I for one see no reason at all why I should respect biologically male people who don’t respect me, or biologically female people in general.

Well said.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 16:13

I have come to the conclusion if you can't respect women, our rights and our voices and words you are a misogynistic woman hater. No debate.

I cannot disagree, Boiledbeetle.

ScrollingLeaves · 24/01/2023 16:13

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · Today 15:56

Excellent post, FlirtsWithRhinos (today 14:01)

It is, it explains so much. Thank you FWR.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 16:12

That has not gone unnoticed in other comments I have received. If you want a discussion, it needs to be respectful or I won’t be there.

But it an be argued (and I would indeed argue) that none of what you’re doing, what anyone involved in GRA reform etc is doing, is respectful to women.

You disrespect us by the very act of - as a biologically male person - appropriating the material reality of biologically female people and claiming it as an identity for you to use as you please. In the context of age old male oppression of female people, where males have traditionally extracted whatever resources they want from female people without concerning themselves with the issue of consent, this is just another assault on our human rights. As always, we are objects to be used by male people; not subjects with full agency.

When you make use of facilities designated for female people, and campaign for ever wider access to those facilities for more and more male people - which is the net result of GRR in tandem with self ID in general - you are again disrespecting us.

Biologically male people who respect biologically female people, and acknowledge the ways female people have been systematically hurt and disadvantaged by male rule across the generations, respect our boundaries.

I for one see no reason at all why I should respect biologically male people who don’t respect me, or biologically female people in general.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 15:56

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/01/2023 14:01

I think a post I made on the media representation thread is relavent to the question of whether relaxing GRC rules creates additional dangers/challenges for female people:

Why is relaxing the GRC criteria to make it effectively self ID a concern when trans women are already appropriating female spaces, resources and our political and social voices without one?

The gender supremacy movement (this being the movement for the supremacy of gender identity over sex) has mutated its concept of gender over time. The pattern has been to gain a legal concession based on one assumed, but not legally defined, concept of gender, then assert that right applies to people using a different and much wider concept of gender.

So, medically transitioned transsexuals were already living as women. However their actual sex, male, would be revealed by their legal documents. They wanted this concealed for their own privacy so the law gave them a legal fiction to allow them to conceal their birth sex. They didn't need the GRC to live as women, it didn't "change" anything.... except the tiny little detail that it established the concept of a legal sex which can be different to your birth sex.

The next step was to flip this concept 180. GS position is now not that a GRC is a legal fiction, changing documentation to facilitate a major change in a person's life, it's a legal record of fact, correcting documention that has been wrong since birth.

In other words, Legal sex was established as a legal fiction to disguise the sex of male people living AS women but the GS movement now uses it to claim the law recognizes male people can BE women.

So the concept the activists present of the trans woman mutates from the concept under which the GRA was shaped, ie men who are compelled to live "as" women, wanting to live as passing facsimiles of women and needing a GRC to maintain the il/de/lusion - to men who just are women, and who can be as openly, obviously male as they want because their gender isn't related to their body.

But now, the GRC, established as a legal fiction concealing birth sex to support the "as a women" trans women, becomes a problem because it was based in the assumption that the trans women needs the legal fiction to hide her maleness. In that model, her need for it - her "womanhood" if you will - has to be in some way proved or earned, and that doesn't match the new, was-always-a-woman construction where maleness is fine and a GRC is not a fiction for privacy, but a validation of the fact that she is and always was a woman.

So now the demand is for the law to change again to "catch up" with what trans women are already doing. "It won't make a difference, after all they are already in your spaces, and taking your resources, and replacing over your experiences with their own stories of womanhood"

But what it does do is move that baseline another jump, from a GRC being a legal fiction to preserve the privacy of someone living "as a" woman, to a enshrinement in law that a male person is a woman if that is what (s)he says (s)he is. The concept of womanhood is relocated in the law's eyes from the body to the mind/will, not just for trans women but for all women.

Far from the GRC being "just a bit of admin", Women as a legal class based on their sex and the needs of their sex have been entirely un/redefined by it.

So, the important thing isn't what someone can do the day they get their GRC that they couldn't do the day before. It's what further encroachment of male wants on female resources and lives will this new, legal reconception of gender will it be used to normalise next?

Excellent post, FlirtsWithRhinos

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 15:54

DialSquare · 24/01/2023 15:38

I can't think why Boiled!

After this weekend and another rapist in the female estate today, the gloves are off.

I will never use female words or pronouns for Males and I couldn't give a fuck if that upsets TRAs and handmaidens.

Yeah the decapitate Terfs signs was the end for me. I'm actually rather enjoying the no debate stance I say my piece and then move on to the next comment, and only reply to something that I actually have something, usually inane! to say to someone like yourself!

I'm only having conversions with those I would in real life now. Those that I would say you are wrong this is why, I'm not interested in their response to me. They had their chance for debate. They pissed it up the wall with that sign.

I will not debate and probably not respect anyone who tries to hi jack womanhood for their own means. Tries to minimise the harms being done in many forms to women in favour of men's feelings and desires. Anyone who tries to excuse or deny those signs can fuck of as well.

I have come to the conclusion if you can't respect women, our rights and our voices and words you are a misogynistic woman hater. No debate.

DialSquare · 24/01/2023 15:38

I can't think why Boiled!

After this weekend and another rapist in the female estate today, the gloves are off.

I will never use female words or pronouns for Males and I couldn't give a fuck if that upsets TRAs and handmaidens.

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 15:09

Also THAT will be why it was in my brain, your post. No other reason.

Oh wait, your post had already been deleted before I read it.

So back to wondering why I'm thinking of it on this thread.

🤔

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 15:07

DialSquare · 24/01/2023 15:03

I used that line in the IW thread yesterday but "accidentally" dropped the "y". My post was deleted!

It's bloody autocorrect. It seriously is sexist

😁

DialSquare · 24/01/2023 15:03

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 15:00

I've suddenly got a Shakespeare line from Hamlet stuck in my head.

In response to some rather insincere over acting Queen Gertrude responds with

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Of course these days we use it to show we don't have much faith in the sincerity of someone.

Usually with regards to the actual truth of a strong denial.

Can't think why that's popped into my head now.

I used that line in the IW thread yesterday but "accidentally" dropped the "y". My post was deleted!

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 15:00

I've suddenly got a Shakespeare line from Hamlet stuck in my head.

In response to some rather insincere over acting Queen Gertrude responds with

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Of course these days we use it to show we don't have much faith in the sincerity of someone.

Usually with regards to the actual truth of a strong denial.

Can't think why that's popped into my head now.

oldwomanwhoruns · 24/01/2023 14:46

And anyway, this is Mumsnet
Mums.
Women.

I rest my case...

Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/01/2023 14:43

This is another reason why Robin is only an occasional visitor to MN...Robin gets Robin's arse handed to them.

Mmmnotsure · 24/01/2023 14:22

RMW: I trust it will be noted that I don’t engage in personal attacks.

Also RMW replying:
Robin Moira White (she/her)
Jan 10
Tweet of the day.

Emilia (She/Her) #TransRightsAreHumanRights
Jan 10
Replying to @moira_robin
Why do people consider Sonia Sodha a journalist? Clearly, that is a textbook example of someone self identifying as one.