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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Phillimore and Robin Moira White interviewed by Andrew Doyle

814 replies

DerekFaker · 22/01/2023 22:40

About the Scottish gender recognition bill

OP posts:
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35
FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/01/2023 23:41

But the worst of you here treat trans people just as you would complain about men treating women historically.

I think the point is rather that trans women, for all their vaunted womanhood, are still fundamentally treating women as men have treated women historically : as a resource, as something to be defined through male observations, as a liability to be managed, as a problem to be solved by male objectivity (ha!), as a collection of parts, as a signifier of sex, as a gender role. The one thing that never occurs to them (male people) is to just let us define ourselves and listen to us tell our own stories.

Rainbowshit · 24/01/2023 23:30

RobinMoiraWhite · 24/01/2023 17:49

It’s a paradox for me. Through my working life I have tried to treat everyone properly, equally and fairly, no matter what their protected characteristic.

But the worst of you here treat trans people just as you would complain about men treating women historically.

A little bit of self-reflection and self-awareness goes a long way.

But I’m sure you will just keep stirring your cauldrons.

’Bye for now.

Ah ha ha. I hope this doesn't get deleted. It should be allowed to stand to display the hypocrisy and misogyny. Witches eh? Try and be more original next time.

JellySaurus · 24/01/2023 23:25

But I’m sure you will just keep stirring your cauldrons

We are the granddaughters of the witches you could not burn.

BeReet · 24/01/2023 22:57

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 16:12

That has not gone unnoticed in other comments I have received. If you want a discussion, it needs to be respectful or I won’t be there.

But it an be argued (and I would indeed argue) that none of what you’re doing, what anyone involved in GRA reform etc is doing, is respectful to women.

You disrespect us by the very act of - as a biologically male person - appropriating the material reality of biologically female people and claiming it as an identity for you to use as you please. In the context of age old male oppression of female people, where males have traditionally extracted whatever resources they want from female people without concerning themselves with the issue of consent, this is just another assault on our human rights. As always, we are objects to be used by male people; not subjects with full agency.

When you make use of facilities designated for female people, and campaign for ever wider access to those facilities for more and more male people - which is the net result of GRR in tandem with self ID in general - you are again disrespecting us.

Biologically male people who respect biologically female people, and acknowledge the ways female people have been systematically hurt and disadvantaged by male rule across the generations, respect our boundaries.

I for one see no reason at all why I should respect biologically male people who don’t respect me, or biologically female people in general.

This! All day, every day.

Leafstamp · 24/01/2023 22:48

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 24/01/2023 21:24

ah man

I missed Robin disgracing robinself

sad face

😂

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 22:33

Just picking up on one of Robins points I missed earlier

I was asked to attend to discuss the issues related to Scottish Reform. How my voice, appearance or an unnuanced ‘sound bite’ from a much longer previous discussion are relevant to that is not clear to me

As a woman surely Robin is well aware that in the media and the internet women who have a public face are constantly slated, critiqued, criticised, talked about with regards their voice, their appearance, something they said somewhere else about something else years ago is picked back up and dissected and slagged off.

And the problem for Robin with this is what? robin is a woman, a successful woman.

Well this is how successful women by the thousands get spoken about, and so much worse, every single minute of every single hour of every single day of every single year.

You want womanhood, well you don't get to cherry pick only the bits that work for you mate.

Live with it.

BaronMunchausen · 24/01/2023 22:21

SinnerBoy · 24/01/2023 19:19

RobinMoiraWhite · Today 13:18

There are no examples which support restricting the ‘Scottish’ route to a GRC as causing additional danger.

That's patently untrue; just because you choose to ignore it, it doesn't mean that the hundreds of incidents, including women being sexually assaulted in prison, by trans "women" does not equate to "no examples."

Or is it that you simply don't give a damn?

I suspect the argument is that the danger is already with us. Which in that respect is true: Stonewall law has de facto replaced actual law in the UK (dangerous males in women's prisons without a GRC, signs warning women to never challenge a man in their 'bathrooms' etc) including the Equality Act. In theory such things could be legally challenged now - but not if they are copperfastened with legislation that allows any boy or man to be legally recognised as female.

Aside from this, White ignores the psychological impact on women and girls and widespread self-exclusion in places like Ireland, and has previously declared that policy must be based on hard data not subjective fears - a stereotypically male attitude that summarily dismisses the fears of women and girls.

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 22:12

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 24/01/2023 21:24

ah man

I missed Robin disgracing robinself

sad face

Robin never disgraces oneself, Robin merely enhances the meaning of what being a woman and womanhood actually is with every post.

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 22:09

AnyFucker · 24/01/2023 21:19

But I’m sure you will just keep stirring your cauldrons

It always seeps out, doesn’t it. The mask slips and the misogyny is revealed.

Yeah, I'm surprised it took so long today. It's usually over much quicker (story of my life)

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 24/01/2023 21:24

ah man

I missed Robin disgracing robinself

sad face

AnyFucker · 24/01/2023 21:19

But I’m sure you will just keep stirring your cauldrons

It always seeps out, doesn’t it. The mask slips and the misogyny is revealed.

JellySaurus · 24/01/2023 21:02

Helleofabore · 24/01/2023 20:15

Misogyny doesn’t diminish with transition. Despite people’s wish to convince otherwise.

Not only does the transition individual's misogyny not diminish, but if they are treated like a woman and ignored - they are furious at having misogynistic attitudes directed at them.

Why transition if you hate women and hate being treated like a woman?

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 20:42

Faffertea · 24/01/2023 20:39

Some really excellent posts on this thread.

None of them belonging to Rob…plus ça change etc

Makes you wonder how exciting the deleted ones must have been

Faffertea · 24/01/2023 20:39

Some really excellent posts on this thread.

None of them belonging to Rob…plus ça change etc

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 20:19

Helleofabore · 24/01/2023 20:15

Misogyny doesn’t diminish with transition. Despite people’s wish to convince otherwise.

I think it actually increases as their anger at still being denied increases personally

Helleofabore · 24/01/2023 20:15

Misogyny doesn’t diminish with transition. Despite people’s wish to convince otherwise.

EasterIsland · 24/01/2023 20:06

But I’m sure you will just keep stirring your cauldrons.

Tell me you're a man without telling me you're a man.

Wellies54 · 24/01/2023 20:01

The tragedy is that if transwomen just had the courage to say 'we are extremely gender non-conforming men, we feel feminine but know that we are male and must therefore respect the same rules and boundaries as everyone else ', we'd all get along just fine and the vast majority of 'transphobia' would vanish overnight.

Hepwo · 24/01/2023 19:52

WoeBeCome · 24/01/2023 19:27

Great flounce.

I’m still fairly new to all this, been around a while under different names but didn’t really get it for a while.

However I used to manage women’s refuges, glad I don’t now! I would be in a very very conflicted position.

The whole thing is ducking nuts. Can’t believe we’re in a position where we’re having to pretend that men are women. When they’re just not. And I don’t believe that anyone actually thinks they are literal women. Not really. People might try to be polite and pretend they think it. But even toddlers know the difference between boys and girls.

The only people that believe it are trans people.
Everyone else just humours them.

What a mistake that's been.

I get annoyed at this constant diversion onto predatory men misusing the GRA and whether or not there's evidence.

I don't want any men in single sex spaces at all. None of them are women, and all the legal finagling in the world will make no difference to that.

What they are is men willing to force their presence onto non consenting women.

They are the all the fucking evidence we need.

Wellies54 · 24/01/2023 19:52

WoeBeCome · 24/01/2023 19:29

And the thing that annoys me about it all, is it’s just men trying to be in charge again. Same old story. Like we finally made some progress and they got all jealous and FOMO about it all.

They can't own women any more so now they want to own womanhood.

Helleofabore · 24/01/2023 19:39

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 18:54

Robin never did engage with my point about how I and others perceive male appropriation of womanhood as misogynistic and disrespectful to female people in itself; how there are many of us female people who think male people violating our boundaries is always intrinsically deeply disrespectful to us.

I wonder why? Not so keen on self-reflection and self-awareness after all? Not when it’s being asked of Robin, perhaps; only when commanding us lowly service human types to remember our place, it seems.

Oh Roaring! You were very optimistic. A male, who doesn’t answer about how women feel about males calling themselves woman and asserting they are ‘just like us (women)’?

I would predict it is those male people who cannot understand it that are well and truly heavily invested in saying they are the ones ‘just like us (women)’!

I doubt they could answer it without being caught in a harsh dissonance loop.

WoeBeCome · 24/01/2023 19:37

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 19:30

Yup.

They don’t want to lose control of us. Don’t want to lose their service humans.

It’s just quite incredible really that anyone is even having this conversation about letting male rapists into women’s prisons. Or having a CEO of a rape crisis centre who isn’t biologically female.

Or I am Sarah having to deal with what she’s dealing with. I can’t quite get my head round why it’s even a question. Particular when trans people can make their own trans spaces if they like. And actually have trans services. I don’t get why that isn’t good enough? Why aren’t trans spaces good enough for them? Alongside separate women’s only spaces.

TheClogLady · 24/01/2023 19:35

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 24/01/2023 19:26

True.

They win, we lose.

Patriarchy in a nutshell.

Patriarchy, 2, The Sequel.

The Patricia-archy.

Now with lipstick!

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 19:33

IcakedefargeIam · 24/01/2023 19:31

Would have been worth more just after the start of covid, especially if the pages are nice and soft.

That's why i refuse to get rid of my actual books. When the revolution, o r the zombies happen books have so many uses! Read, wipe, heat

IcakedefargeIam · 24/01/2023 19:31

Boiledbeetle · 24/01/2023 19:27

Cheap way to keep the bbq going

Would have been worth more just after the start of covid, especially if the pages are nice and soft.