I suspect RMW won't answer any of my revision questions, ignoring them as they do. But I've got another one.

Would you change the pronouns of this person if you were in court? You opted for they/them - for reasons entirely unclear to everyone -but these have never to my knowledge been requested or used by the offender. So they're not their preferred pronouns, not do they reflect their stayed gender identity, nor their biological sex. This rapist's victims were made to listen to their attacker being described as she and her, and to the penis they had forced into them described as 'her penis'. This retraumatising language, and coerced speech is all part of something you have previously been on board with - they are who they say they are, misgendering is unacceptable etc.

So if you were in court during this trial, would you choose to use they/them? Or would you go along with she/her? How would you feel about feeling forced into it?

Sorry to hear about your mum @OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit . Much love to you both.

It raises such an important point though doesn't it. That MPs like LRM and BB would say Miriam Cates was transphobic for recounting her story about not knowing what the intention of the male standing behind her in the ladies loo was, but not having time to analyse it as she instinctively felt frightened, and Robin would have agreed that any doubt was transphobia too. But here we are with multiple politicians saying that because Graham is convicted of rape, maybe he's not a TW, or because he changed his gender identity after arrest, maybe he's not genuine. How on earth are women, stuck in a small space in a state of undress, or faced with a male in their dorm in a hostel, meant to be able to make those decisions? Knowing as they do that one word of doubt or any query would results in howls of transphobia and threats of legal action.

@Boiledbeetle it was 60 years ago when she was in her teens and the nasty bastard in question was her father. She is absolutely fine almost all of the time but finds the presence of a man in a women toilet utterly trigging.
She is far from a bigot and anti- trans - she spent half of one of my siblings wedding dancing and chatting and laughing with a trans guest. But she gave herself a nasty UTI a few years ago when she when into flight mode when I made the stupid mistake of taking her the theatre in Brighton and she had inevitable encounter in the 'ladies' and was too embarrassed to tell me.

A WOMAN IS AN ADULT HUMAN FEMALE. A MAN IS AN ADULT HUMAN MALE. A HUMAN CANNOT BECOME THE OTHER SEX, THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. THEREFORE MALE PRISONERS MUST, 100% OF THE TIME, GO IN THE MALE PRISON ESTATE. MEN HAVE NO PLACE IN WOMEN'S PRISONS.

🔥✨@Spero that was so good. The proper-sexed pronouns make everything so clear and grounded. That made me want to punch the air.

I noticed that RMW had a little dig at the Children’s Act there.

His analogy there is such a bloody stretch, so manipulative. When making a difficult decision about whether to keep a child with borderline unfit parents or remove them, the child’s welfare is paramount in the situation. The question is “what is more harmful, separating the child from their parents or leaving the child in a potentially harmful environment?”.

When making the ‘difficult decision’ about where to place a man in prison is he thinks/or claims to think he is a woman, he is not a child, his needs are not paramount. He is in prison being punished for a crime.

Obviously he (and all prisoners) needs to be kept safe and he has modified his body in such a way that it makes him vulnerable, he needs to be in a separate wing of the men’s prison for vulnerable prisoners.

And the apartheid thing ffs.
I mean, if the man is in for something small and non-violent, it’s not like it is going to be a long sentence.

Well done again SP for not letting any nonsense fly.

For you and your mum. I hope she's on the mend. Not that easy to do at 80. Just because some man wanted something a woman currently had.

💐🌻🌷🌼🌸🏵🌺🌹💐

So RMW who is intelligent, educated, something of an expert in trans matters and is presumably fairly well versed in this case having spoken about it several times admits that RMW can't necessary judge if someone if genuinely trans or merely a nasty bastard who is prepared to pop on some ugly, ill fitting leggings and a spot of lippy when it suits their agenda. (One of the things that we all know will never happen because we been told it won't).
But RMW thinks my almost 80 year old mother - still suffering trauma from having the bathroom door kicked in by a nasty bastard man who dragged her out of the bath by her hair because she hadn't vacated the room quickly enough for his liking isn't allowed a moment of doubt or hesitation or fear or 'I wonder what if that bloke in a dress is actually a nasty bastard' when one walks into the women's bathroom because to do that makes her mad, a witch, a generally bad egg?
Men should stay out of women's spaces, women's sports and women's awards and if any man genuinely 'felt like women' they would absolutely understand why that is the right thing to do.

😸🍰

Worth watching Akua stating her position at the top of the programme, also!
I like her

@Spero was brilliant. Robin MW looked a total fool, tbh.

Just saw the clip. Spero-- you are amazing. Thank you

I'm sorry I keep subjecting you to my poems, but sometimes a thread comes up that one seems relevant for.

All of us on here, well, nearly all of us, have one thing in common. We all come from different places religions countries, etc. But the one thing we all share, that no man ever can, is the very fact of being a woman.

We don't have to pretend to be women. We don't have to feel like a woman (whatever the fuck that means). We don't all have to agree our gender is female.

We just are women.

So, personally from now on I'm done: No more mental gymnastics, no forcing myself to ignore my eyes, ignore my brain, ignore my ears, no ignoring my gut, and certainly no ignoring any woman's sexual preferences.

Just because some man has decided he wants to have a bit of that which does not belong to him?

Fuck that. Anyway poem below.

WOMEN OF EXTREMES

From Barbie to GI Joe we are woman.
From high heels to rigger boots we are woman.
From flat chested to buxom we are woman.
From mother of six to barren with nil we are woman.
From “3 days, very light” to “36 days now, still flooding” we are woman.
From homeless with nothing to millionaire’s row we are woman.
From far left to far right we are woman.
From pro-choice to pro-life we are woman.
From (pick religion of choice) to no God at all we are woman.
From only does cock to only does cunt we are woman.
From all walks of life and from all points of view we are woman.
From time of conception to moment of death WE ARE WOMAN.

You wonderful women, every single one of you.Especially @Spero, We are so proud of you tonight.

Boiled x

@Spero thank you.

Snap😁

@AlwaysTawnyOwl with thanks to @Boiledbeetle

For the poster above who wanted a link, sorry I'm on the previous page to get this post so can't remember who asked.

I'm also heterosexual but have quite the girl crush going on!

As straight as I am, I have always found intelligence, articulacy and integrity particularly attractive. That is someone with a steadfast moral compass and a lot of brains - what's not to like!

we Aren't troublesome. We are lovable rogues!😉

Robin called us witches, that's an awful thing to do. Therefore, by Robin's own logic,.......omg!

@Boiledbeetle

Exactly.

And it clearly makes no sense because the fundamental point about humanity is that some people are completely awful human beings.They murder and abuse, and do awful disgusting things to children or people in lower positions of power to them.

Some men are awful human beings
Some women are awful human beings
Some English people are human beings
Some black people are human beings
Some Hispanic people are awful human beings
Some Brexit voters are awful human beings
Some remainers are awful human beings.
Some people are awful human beings.

But trans people? No.
If they are an awful human being then they aren't trans.

No. By your logic they are. They say they are.

And that is why the sex only safeguards are there.

It is not about an individual and how nice they are.
It's to safeguard against the few who are not. It's about potentials and possibilities.

Only a person with a penis can rape a woman.
People with a penis should not be placed with vulnerable women in women's only spaces.

This is not an attack on men. This is not an attack on trans women. It is simply a measure to stop the possibility of women a) being violated or b) feeling the threat of violation.

Most men don't rape
Most trans women don't rape.

We know.

That's not the point.

So sorry I missed this. Anyone got a link?

And men need to stay out of the women's toilets. As well as prisons.

All men. Because using Robin's rules apparently some men says they are trans and they shock horror might not be.

But, don't worry witches there is a fool proof way to tell. If they rape a woman then they are probably, not trans. Despite having uttered the magic "I am trans" Robin is suddenly gatekeeping transness. Robin is using they for Isla which means Robin misgendered That transwoman as Isla is most definitely a she. The pink gave it away quite frankly.

Now if we do that we are called transphobic, so unfortunately Robin due to your transphobic comments this evening in afraid I have to inform you that you are in fact a TERF. Sorry Robin.

So this is where the problem is Robin. You've just admitted on live tv that you can't be sure that a man who has said he is a woman is definitely a woman.

Your only way to determine this seems to be the fact that he had now been convicted of rape.

So how about all the men who haven't gone to trial yet, haven't been charged yet, haven't been arrested yet, haven't found the right victim yet? All those men identifying as women are according to Robins logic probably not trans either.

And if Robin can't tell who is a trans woman and who is a man pretending to be trans then I have to ask Robin

How the fuck can we?

Do you get it yet Robin?

You can't tell. We can't tell.

MEN or trans?

And until there is some way for us women to know the Fucking difference all of them can all get the hell out of our spaces

Every single one of them.

No ifs

no buts.

No debate

@Spero thanks, you marvellous adult human female

IT support is needed I'm still on dial-up. Mainly because I like the sounds it makes

Hope someone clips that segment because

Sarah spoke the truth

I like that other posters watched it all and did considered response that picked up Biggs i missed in my comment by sentence approach.

But i was just to gobsmacked that the arguments from Robin weren't just poor, they were astoundingly diabolical. Misrepresenting facts, misgendering people. Although there was a lot of that going on by all parties on there this evening.

I'm just....

Honestly...

Completely unsurprised. When you haven't got a case to argue there's not much you can do really is there?