Surely, surely on of the main reasons for having separate male and female prisons is to prevent female prisoners getting pregnant? Whether consential or not?

Posting from another thread:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1e9955e-9f52-11ed-b4bb-1b45ac508ab9?shareToken=cee741126350990cbbb2afb0edc81e56

Calum Steele is general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation

This guy is having none of it

Share token care of bingbong on another thread

Sorry, one of the interviewees seemed to be claiming that. So all that due diligence when women's prisons etc were set up is literal apartheid. The goal of women's welfare seems to be something which women don't deserve.

But, but, but, there are violent women, too!

of course there are! And they're then segregated within women's prison and not dumped into male prisons.

There clearly needs to be reorganisation within male prisons.

It also seems oddly common that it's transwomen with sexual offences seeking women's prisons.

This seems to be stating, promoting the falsehood that keeping a lad out of women's spaces is akin to apartheid in South Africa. When this is what the lad wants to happen. It appears to be all about what the lad thinks and wants. Irrespective of reality, or impact on women.

Disclaimer: I am not of the 'belief', or susceptible to the 'doctrine' that someone magically changes sex.

Spero, as you know, RMW is the expert at bringing in false analogies to try to pad out their argument and divert emotions. You were fantastic at shooting each one down.

Why aren't the risk assessments being done within the male estate and vulnerable males being house accordingly?

Rates of males with additional learning needs is very high in prison. Younger men and gay men will be at the same risk of rape.

30 year old males at peak strength who need 11 men to hold them will be being looked after by female staff in women's prisons. The trans identified male RMW mentioned was clearly very let down by the system. But the male system.

The men need to sort out the men. It's not the women's job.

Why are some people so eager to compare it to race? Presumably Robin thinks that there is a race that carries out 98% of all sexual assaults. I would not be surprised if Robin did think that - remembering a now-deleted post a while ago that implied awful things about a certain race.

Another thank you Spero. When you say:
"I think this - finally! - has breached the dam. I am very sad and shocked that the mutilation of children didn't do it, but let's just get it done!"

I share that sadness and shock. I know that parents are finally waking up to the grooming of children in schools that "wrong bodies" are a thing with drug &, surgery fixing them. Let's hope that attention will move urgently to what's happening and that children will finally be protected from the adults peddling these lies to them.

And Robin gave Sarah something of a gift at the start by stating that Robin would use they/them when referring to Adam, as was unsure of the sincerity of Adam's current identity.

That's the whole bloody point!

Which of these men are genuinely just trying to alleviate a body dysmorphia condition and which are bad men exploiting a loophole? And how are we meant to tell the difference? Not to mention that while NAMALT and also NATWALT, some are.

But, but, but, there are violent women, too! Yes. Yes, there are violent women too, but that is not what this segment was about, was it? This segment was specifically about whether men who called themselves women - for whatever reason - should be housed in the male or female prison estate.

A similar tactic was used earlier in the week from RMW when asked whether Robin thought women should have single sex spaces. And rather than giving an answer of what Robin thought, the answer given was 'Not under the law as it stands' (5.41 in the clip in the OP)

I'm not sure this is quite the right thread for this, but I have to put it somewhere before it completely melts my brain.

I have seen elsewhere on the internet a serious suggestion that the correct thing to do with pronouns for 'Isla' (and presumably also 'Tiffany') is to use the ones they request because ...

[please sit down, and remove any delicate items from your immediate vicinity before reading on]

... if they are really trans, that's the kind thing to do; and if they're lying then misgendering will cause them distress, which will punish them for lying.

WTF!?!!

A risk assessment was done when the original female spaces were approved/built.

That includes all prisons, changing rooms, toilets, shelters etc etc etc.

The risk of males was assessed and female spaces were a mitigation to reduce the risk to females from males.

That's all that is needed here.

Men must not be in female prisons. It needs to be made very clear that all spaces where women sleep, undress or play sports will be governed by sex and sex alone. Trans identifying men ought to be given a choice between a male prison or a separate unit for such men.

This is NOT 'segregation' akin to apartheid as Robin suggested. It is protecting the privacy rights of women, as well as their physical safety.

You cannot change sex. That's the fundamental issue. I agree that trans identifying men could be especially vulnerable in male prisons, hence provide a separate option. But women are not a dustbin into which vulnerable men can be swept.

@Spero You are a force of nature. Full of admiration for you

Thanks for the link above, Sarah was magnificent.

@Spero I have no idea how you managed to remain so icily polite, but your clear, calmly delivered answers were such a contrast to the deflections and waffling from Robin.

While I do not condone Robin's use of Vikki Thompson's suicide to try to make a point, I am sure there are equally young, vulnerable men, in prison for non violent crimes, who have not changed their identity. Equally at risk of abuse and sexual assault. Should they be moved to the female estate?

@MorvenOfMalvern makes a really good point about pronoun use. RMW brought up the Equal Treatment Bench Book when they were both with Andrew Doyle IIRC, so would Robin go against that if Robin was involved in this particular case?

@spero absolutely in awe of you.

@Spero thank you for holding the line and speaking for so many women.

The truth is powerful, completely in awe of you.

These are the violent, dangerous, mentally ill women haters that this 'gender identity' bullshit has empowered and enabled. 'I am what I say I am' etc.

👏

Spero

Sp many of us are also fuming on your behalf and on behalf of so many other women. Thank you for fighting so hard!

And we could see your anger last night. I for one could not have stayed that calm in the same space as Robin Moira White. The words and sentiments that came out of Robin's mouth were to my ears particularly abhorrent last night.

There was complete uncaring for women and children. It was all about the needs and wants of the male transgender person.

The fact that Robin decided to gatekeep transness, accuse a transwoman of probably lying. Attempt to suggest a hierarchy of good transpeople crimes. Misrepresented the case of a man who committed suicide. The list just goes on.

So if it's good enough for Robin to not believe transwomen when they say they are women. If it's good enough for Robin to refuse to use the correct pronouns for someone. if it's good enough for Robin to not be sure...well then it's good enough for us to.

The damn had definitely been breached.

You did women a wonderful service yesterday and we are so bloody grateful.

Thank you.

Now I'd better get up and feed my cat otherwise my spells will never get done today!

To much time on Witchnet is my problem!

@Spero

💐

Thank you for the support and kind comments. This whole process has been so interesting. Like so many of you I have now had enough.

I was investigated by my regulator for two years. I had to make a FOIA request to get any meaningful Information from them and saw myself described as 'abhorrent' and that no one would instruct me. Like all cowards and bullies they backed down when I stood up to them and made it clear I would take them to court for unlawful discrimination. How dare they. How dare they try to punish me for talking about any of this.

In preparation for last night I read two documents - a Home Office report from 2000 and a 2019 report on policy capture from Murray and Blackburn. Women did not feature AT ALL in the 2000 report. Press for Change and GIRES did. The 2019 report made it clear that women were NOT consulted for the 2014 policy on Scottish Prisons. James Morton of the Scottish Trans Alliance was quoted as saying in 2018 that once transwomen were accepted in female prisons, other public services would follow suit.

This has been decades in the making and women have been excluded every step of the way.

So enough really is enough. Both the police and the BSB have come for me and both have failed. That was very foolish of them because that puts me in a very strong position indeed. I will continue to accept invitations to speak any time any place and anywhere - and if that's upsetting to 'left wing feminists' then that's just too bad. You crack on with your conferences.

Because once this ideology/theology is dragged kicking and screaming to a public stage, it self combusts immediately. Robin deciding to junk she/her pronouns for Adam Graham and wanting to avoid comment on Andrew Burns was very significant. These are the violent, dangerous, mentally ill women haters that this 'gender identity' bullshit has empowered and enabled. 'I am what I say I am' etc.

Well I am now extremely angry. And unlike these ridiculous men in balaclavas I am not afraid to show my face and I am able to direct my anger into coherent words and positive action.

I think this - finally! - has breached the dam. I am very sad and shocked that the mutilation of children didn't do it, but let's just get it done.

Enough.

@OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit then give her an extra long hug for no reason whatsoever!

I'm beyond fucking tired of 'reframe your trauma' and 'it will never happen' and the thinly veiled misogyny, oh and be kind. I'm incandescent with women and girls being a buffer zone, a human shield, the collateral damage because otherwise a man might be sad.

yeah I tried reframing my trauma in my teens and twenties and thirties. It just led to illegal drugs, being black out drunk and doing things that caused me to compound the existing trauma and add a whole different lot of trauma on top.

So, they can fuck off with that.

And i hope your listening Robin, no rape victim, not even the one your client is denying a single sex service to despite the law allowing for them to do exactly that and exclude transwomen, and certainly not me or @IamSarah will ever learn to centre our traumas around the sex that raped and abused us. Had there been an unknown man, or transwomen, in my therapy sessions I couldn't have attended. And without those sessions I don't think I'd still be here.

So no, rape victims won't be doing that.

We just want to get on with our therapy for being raped by a male with a penis, without having to worry about centering:

the man with a penis calling himself Barry and saying he's a man

OR

the man with a penis, (or not any longer personal choice, and all that), calling himself a transwomen, believing he's a woman, and calling himself Barbara.

OR

the man with the penis calling himself Annie or Isla who may be like Barry and Be a man, but also a man pretending to be like Barbara, OR may actually be telling the truth and actually be a transwoman like Barbara.

Because not one of those men should be in a women's only single sex, allowed by the law as a legitimate means to a legitimate aim, rape therapy session.

Men do not belong in women's single sex spaces. The law needs tightening up. We need to have the rights we weren't even told had been taken from us, back. And we will get them. And we need any other laws that have the same issues sorted as well.

And these days everyone is equal, anyone can marry anyone they like so it's time to repeal the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

And if that means 5000 men who currently have the legal right (and the many thousands more who know we can't tell the difference between the GRC holders and the self ID ones, and the, according to Robin, pretend ones that aren't trans at all, probably, maybe, Robin isn't to sure, especially as no-one is allowed to ask them) will have to get used to using the men's changing room, the men's toilets, the mens prisons, until those 5000 men and their millions of allies successfully get third gender neutral provision to compliment the existing two types of single sex provision.

There was a time we'd have helped them achieve that, but I'm personally all out of goodwill, and I've got no fucks left to give.

We didn't create this mess.

To think all this stems from a bit of law that was designed to alleviate the suffering of apparently only 5000 men, to the detriment of millions of women, without even asking us if that was OK, did we have any questions! See any ssues?

How can men who wish to be women, who feel like a woman be so incredibly cruel and selfish to the sex they apparently are in order to satisfy a male urge. Because whatever they think or call themselves the decision to become a woman was made by a man's brain. not a women's.

Something I noticed, RMW very confidently began by saying that everyone would agree with Sarah that this rapist didn't belong in a woman's prison.

Robin, no, that's no true. Lots and lots of people disagree. Lots of people support placing him there because he says he is a woman. Lots of people have said again and again that TWAW if they say they are, and we must believe them and if we don't we are bigots and deserve awful physical punishment, lots of people, including politicians, have said trans women should serve in women's jails, just as they should be admitted to ALL women's spaces.

The reason why that man was ever in a woman's prison, or on a beauty course where teenaged girls had to strip in front of him for spray tans, was because of all the people who disagree with Sarah, and have gone to such lengths to ensure that neither her or any of the rest of us ever get our voices heard.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be debating this at all, would we?

@Boiledbeetle @MorvenOfMalvern
Thank you both for your kind words and concern for mum. They mean a lot to me. I'm afraid to say I won't be passing them on to her because she would be horrified to know I have shared her story here but I am so fucking tired of women being told to shut up, sit down and be kind. I'm so fucking tired of 'it's only a toilet', 'people just want to pee' and 'want harm does it do anyone' and be kind. I'm beyond fucking tired of 'reframe your trauma' and 'it will never happen' and the thinly veiled misogyny, oh and be kind. I'm incandescent with women and girls being a buffer zone, a human shield, the collateral damage because otherwise a man might be sad.
I've had enough.

I'd say oh that's better, but it's really not. But you know what I mean! Give her the flowers anyway!

That's the thing most of my abuse was in childhood, yet over forty years later the smell of his aftershave, as it still exists, will trigger me. It's the oddest of things that cause the response and i have no control over that. And in toilets you have to take clothes off, there's no way to escape. it's like you are back there decades ago. tran

It's irrelevant if the person you know to be male that is in the women's toilets means you no harm and is, according to Robin, the right kind, harmless, real, not pretending transwoman. As there is no way of knowing that.

We are not transphobic. We aren't scared of the transwoman in our spaces, we are scared of what the man, that we see 👀 as a man, no matter what he feels, could potentially do to us.

Men are scared women will laugh at them.

Woman are scared men will hit/rape/strangle/kill them.

And there's your mother, a perfect example of when we include men we automatically have some women who will have to self exclude because of it.

so say if Robin uses women's toilets, and honestly I don't know if Robin does or not so this is a hypothetical thought, then Robin your choice to do that would mean many many women, like for example Otters mother, will have to wait until they get home. And for many reasons, but especially as women are more prone to water infections than men, it's not bloody right. And yes it may unfortunately be legal but it sure as hell isn't moral.