I'm scared now. Will i need a cat close by to stroke?

None of this is OK.

You don't understand the rules because firstly you are not supposed to, and secondly they change with the wind.

The other women in here have been asking and asking for answers to the questions in your post. tumbleweed usually or why won't you think of the poor oppressed men.

Better posters than me will hopefully be better at answering.

I'm just the shouty sweaty one!

I haven’t read it (but I have read some of Tish’s reviews on her gender critical woman blog - couple of links on the IPSO thread I started yesterday).
I could try and order a secondhand copy today and we could attempt a chapter by chapter book club type thread?

nilsmousehammer · Today 12:10

It has become apparent that the phrase 'risk assessment' is being politically spun as meaning 'deciding whether or not this male can be safely accommodated in the women's estate'.

Well, as we may surmise, the man is ALWAYS going to be safe in a womens' prison, unless the other prisoners decide to arm themselves and attack him, en masse.

Men must not be in female prisons. It needs to be made very clear that all spaces where women sleep, undress or play sports will be governed by sex and sex alone. Trans identifying men ought to be given a choice between a male prison or a separate unit for such men.

Absolutely that ^^

Apartheid?

Don't be so damn silly.

Men are men. They do not stop being men. Men have no place in women's spaces regardless of how they identify. Women's needs are not predicated on what is going on in the head of a man.

If there are issues for male prisoners and males in general, then address those issues. But whenever these issues are raised it is never about improving the lot of those males, it is an attempt to lever the predetermined desired goal of males in female spaces and females not able to protest.

Like the poor women Bryson made strip off in front of him in a beauty class, with the defense of 'transphobia' against those women having the right to boundaries.

Very, very, very over this now.

I’ve just watched both tv interviews. I saw a person who to me looks like a man choosing to wear clothes more typically worn by women. They sound like a man, they look like a man but apparently they are a woman. I’m going right back to basics here, is there a thread explaining what it is about how this person, and other trans women, live that makes them a woman? All I can see is that they wear more typically female clothes and insist on using womens facilities rather than mens (assuming this person does that). What else? Was Robin called Robin before deciding they were female? It’s a male name to me.

The bold bit. People, women, have been asking for an answer for many many years. No one as far as I'm aware has been able to post a thread telling us we've got an explanation/answer to it yet.

The risk assessment seems to be all about the men & how they feel about it, with no genuine consideration for the actual women involved (including prison staff & the unfair strain, along with the extra work they are putting on those people).

They are banding around "risk assessment" and it's not actually clear who's risk is being assessed.

It has become apparent that the phrase 'risk assessment' is being politically spun as meaning 'deciding whether or not this male can be safely accommodated in the women's estate'. However the Bryson and Scott cases demonstrate that 'no' is never an answer.

The 'risk assessment' is not a 'can we/should we' question that may result in a no.

It is merely to work out the practicalities of the male's care in the women's estate, heavily focused on the nurturing of the male's special needs. With perhaps a brief glance towards minimising the wreckage to female inmates and staff as the main goal is achieved. Perhaps.

It's abhorrent.

I shall have a look at trans Britain.

Let me know if you need a handhold. It gives me the feeling of watching a Martin Scorsese film like Goodfellas or The Wolf of Wall Street, where these evil people are blithely doing awful things, yet are being presented in a sympathetic way (except, unlike the films, it is dull too). It’s hard going.

I’m fairly new to this debate. I’ve commented a couple of times on other threads but as my new name suggests, I don’t get a lot of it.

I’ve just watched both tv interviews. I saw a person who to me looks like a man choosing to wear clothes more typically worn by women. They sound like a man, they look like a man but apparently they are a woman. I’m going right back to basics here, is there a thread explaining what it is about how this person, and other trans women, live that makes them a woman? All I can see is that they wear more typically female clothes and insist on using womens facilities rather than mens (assuming this person does that). What else? Was Robin called Robin before deciding they were female? It’s a male name to me.

I wish the interviews had been longer. Sarah had straight forward facts, clearly stated. Robin waffled about irrelevant things. The only point about prisons being the sad story of a trans woman who committed suicide in Armley. How many males have committed suicide in Armley? All equally as sad as Vicky’s death but not fitting Robins agenda.

Why, if they feel they are a woman, are they so completely lacking in understanding of womens need for safety from predatory men? Surely a woman can see that a man, even a man in a dress, in a woman’s changing room, bathroom, anywhere a woman feels vulnerable, is at best uncomfortable and at worst dangerous? FGS how can a teenage girl having to share a tent with a boy at guide camp be ok? How can teenage girls having to strip to practice spray tans in front of a 30yr old man be ok? How can women who have been raped having to relive their trauma in counselling with a man present be ok? AND HOW CAN A FEMALE PRISONER HAVING TO SHARE A CELL WITH ANY MAN, RAPIST OR SHOPLIFTER, BE OK? ( blaming beetle for the capitals)

So if Robin is a woman, how can they be fighting for these things to be ok? How can they be forcing IamSarah to go through a court case because she was discriminated against for refusing to talk about her rape in front of a man saying they were a woman? No woman would think these are ok surely?

I’m using Robin as an example, I mean all trans women who feel like Robin does. I do not mean all trans women, although my confusion about what makes someone a trans woman applies to all. I guess questioning this probably makes me a transphobia and a bigot, but it’s actually a lack of understanding hence my questions.

Mumsnet causes me masses of frustration at present - sometimes I’m partway through a post and go off to find a link and the Mumsnet page reloads losing everything.

I’m trying to make a habit of writing anything with a link in the notes app and copying over but sometimes replies get bigger than I intended.

We NEED a ‘save draft’ function, goddamnit!

It's lunch time some music, and lyrics with your food (sorry I've had the chorus on loop in my head today for some reason)

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ccs6D1npv3I

Oh, darling why d'you talk so fast?
Another evening just flew past tonight
And now the daybreak's coming in
And I can't win and it ain't right
You tell me all you've done and seen
And all the places you have been without me
Well, I don't really want to know
But I'll stay quiet and then I'll go
And you won't have no cause to think about me
There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis
Just like you swore to me that you'd be true
There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis
But he's a liar and I'm not sure about you
Oh, darling you're so popular
You were the best thing new in Hicksville
With your mohair suits and foreign shoes
Lou says you changed your pickup for a Seville
And now I'm lying here alone
'Cause you're out there on the phone to some star in New York
I can hear you laughing now
And I can't help feeling that somehow
You don't mean anything you say at all
There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis
Just like you swore to me that you'd be true
There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis
But he's a liar and I'm not sure about you, ow!
There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis
Just like you swore to me that you'd be true
There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis
But he's a liar and I'm not sure about you
I said he's a liar and I'm not sure about you
I said he's a liar and I'm not sure about you
I said he's a liar and I'm not sure about you

I'm not a thread starter the thought brings me out in a cold sweat. I tried once, I didn't like it.

But I have been known to hijack a few!

I shall have a look at trans Britain.

I got invisible women for Christmas and I've started It (not good for the blood pressure) and would read the rest it if i could drag myself off here.

I don't think the men who have helped all this grow to where we are now even have one single brain cell that cares about the consequences of this on women. Which is why i class this as a mens rights movement. The actual transpeople, those with the inability to survive their lives in the body they've got, are also bring thrown under the bus. It's wrong. It's cruel. And not surprisingly it's also Fucking misogynistic.

Women have been overlooked and put upon throughout history and i am so Fucking sick off it.

Men, You can't have womanhood. It's ours

@BernardBlacksMolluscs she was fantastic wasn't she!

it would be good if RMW could come to the understanding that women who seek privacy, dignity and safety in single sex spaces aren't 'mad'

maybe at that point he could come to the understanding that he is spoiling the WI meetings for the women at the Institute he attends, and preventing some women from going at all (I know it's a small point in the scheme of things, but it irks me. The members at my institute would hate it if a man attended. it would change the dynamic entirely. we see it when we have a male speaker. We arrange things so they bugger off half way through the meeting so we can still have some women only time).

Honestly watch the second one it's so much more enlightening!

Completely egoistic and delusional.

I have been thinking about starting a thread on Trans Britain, the book. But I don’t know if I can cope.

All these selfish, low-empathy, devious and smug bastards wittering on is almost unbearable to read and I am not sure if I can handle taking one for the team.

They all have a similar personality type. No moral compass, etc.

@Spero thank you. Thank you for the sun light. Thank you for your righteous anger (which remains calm and controlled and a tools you use fantastically well). Thank you for being brave enough to stand up and be counted. Thank you for fighting for women.
They have told us for years that it would never happen and now they have finally conceded that it does.
Perhaps next RMW could now concede that our fears weren't 'madness' but justified but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

I felt that too but only when Robin was talking about wishing to have a woman’s voice

And this is what is so insane about this sham.

These men (and some women) sincerely wishing for something that can never come true.

Its so flimsy and dependent on validation from others.

They can make all their carefully wrought arguments, backed up by bullying, ad homs, information wringing, schmoozing, sycophancy and deviousness.

But what they wish for can never come true.

Wishing to be the opposite sex is a childish wish, like being able to sprout wings and fly like a bird.

It simply cannot happen.

I know the conversation has moved on a bit since then but

woah, Sarah, AMAZING

and you stay so calm when all that nonsense about trusting institutions (that refuse to be scrutinised) is being spouted.

you were very, very good

This is the first time I've seen RMW in a televised debate.

RMW, apartheid, suicide etc. were all you could come up with to counter the question of how society is to differentiate between genuine transwomen and fakers? Or as a counterargument to the statement that separate prison provision for transwomen is a fair solution? Such spurious and manipulative tactics are unworthy of a barrister.

To the posters who only saw the first one, check this out too.