Does my bum look unprofessional in this?

Unwritten rules my arse. Men are not expected to injure their feet to make their legs look longer and I absolutely refuse to bow to expectation on that. I am not a fucking ornament, Flat Shoes Until I Die.

I was about to say "I bet you do " then realised I'd probably get done for sexual harassment.

i hate it when that happens.

Oh the heels thing does annoy me. I wear flats a lot of the time but am expected (by unwritten rule) to wear heels for meetings. Not comfortable, and expensive as well.

On the other hand, I don't have to wear a tie and can get away with a smartish t shirt type top rather than a shirt. So swings and roundabouts I suppose.

stubbornhubby that happens to me a lot (the midriff thing not the staring). It's not deliberate you know, it's because tops shrink in the wash and ride up.

this morning a woman who has just transferred from overseas came and introduced herself to me.

in her 20s, smart black trousers, v smart looking jacket over a simple top, well groomed..

..but with two inches of midriff showing between her trousers and her top

not acceptable.

I thought 'perhasp I should say something', but then discarded the idea as it would have made me feel like her Dad, or something.

I then had to concentrate very hard on NOT staring at her tummy

yes, looking around my office most women seem to have heels, but not usually very high - you don't want to totter after all.

hmm.. I see quite a few of younger women are in flat shoes. I conclude these must be fashionable (?)

stubbornhubby wrote "feminine but not girly".

I think that is the best recipe for professional dressing success. I'm trying to put that into practice. I seem to know it when I see it on other women, as in your example of the woman you saw in the lift. My difficulty comes in applying that to myself. I suppose I must just not be put off by my failures and keep trying to get it right. Oh, maybe one day...

I mostly wear top covered by jacket and knee length skirt. Sometimes trousers.

Do you think skirts require/force the wearing of high heels, by definition almost?

ElephantsAndMiasmas

so in the lift on the way out this evening stepped a woman - early 30s I'd say - in a suit:

• loose fitting trousers, quite like a man's suit
• but a feminine tailored jacket, not tight, still fairly roomy, but definitely a woman's jacket, not a man's
• blue shirt with a collar (couldn't tell how fitted, as jacket on)

she looked great for the office. very professional, conformist, smart, feminine but not girly. I wouldn't have noticed her clothes particularly but for this thread, but...

agree amothersplace (though I have to say, it's bloody hard to find a suit that fits properly - and most tailors don't do women's suits )

In fact I am very glad I'm a woman and have more outfit options than men. For example I can wear knitted tops which I much prefer to shirts (and don't need ironing).

But women could have a wardrobe of dry cleaned suits if they wanted...

aw stubbornhubby didn't mean to offend you!

there are a few highly conservative men in my office who will slightly judge anyone whose shoes/shirts/suits etc aren't from precisely the right shop in Jermyn Street. those are the ones who might judge square toed shoes.

they are of course being ridiculous.

yeah, and then we go and spoil it with square-toed shoes

I envy 'city' men who have a wardrobe fall of dry-cleaned suits hanging up, and just grab one each morning. It is nothing like the heartache most women I know endure in trying to maintain the 'right image' at work.

I have a pair of square toed shoes!
who knew?

Stubbornhubby: your office sounds like mine. The dress code is basically "conservative". That applies equally to men and to women.

For example, a man with an earring or ponytail would probably be frowned on just as much (indeed more than) a woman showing lots of cleavage or in a short skirt. In fact I've known men to be "judged" for wearing square toed shoes rather than standard Oxfords...

I think the minefield exists just as much for men as for women.

yes, it is hard for free-lancers, especially if you are unfamiliar with a firm, because until/unless you are pretty sure of yourself, the safest strategy is to fit in, going for the smart end of the 'norms'.

but when you are interviewing, or when you are just starting - you don't know what everyone else wears.

as a free lancer going for an interview I would very much recommend (if possible) going to the company a week before at 8.30, or lunchtime, or 6pm and just watch people going in and out. that gives you a sense of it.

going back to your question - well, who knows how these 'norms' start?

BUT I think there is a lot of flexibility. Where I work a suit is good thing (as I said) so if you are wearing a suit, either trousers or skirt, you are 3/4 of the way there, and though you are right that women's clothes are more fitted, there is a definite range.. certainly you can be at the loose side of the spectrum without anyone noticing/or paying attnetion. But you can certainly go too loose OR for that matter too tight.

but not a tie - not wear I work anyway.

but one thing: the MORE you dress just like everyone else the LESS attention people will pay to your clothes or to your body shape. IMO.

what do we wear?

Well, we used to have compulsory suits, then in 2001/2002 we went to smart casual (as did many city firms, in response to the dotcom boom)

over time most men returned voluntarily to suits - but without ties. So standard dress, even though we are allowed smart-casual - for men has become suit, work shirt (w cufflinks) black shoes. No ties. smarter in Sales, Scruffier in IT

women - more variety, naturally, but same level of smartness.

• skirts or trousers - yes, often suits
• in the winter simple smart black trousers are very popular, with formal shirt/top. Often a jacket (often taken off when sittng down)

In the summer more skirts/dresses of course, and softer tops. but no bare shoulders. seldom any cleavage.

younger women more adventurous - some in pinafore dresses that look a bit school uniform - older ones more conservative.

you particular question - "woman who turned up to work in a loose fitting suit (a suit probably much like your own) that concealed her body shape, with a shirt and tie on"

• I think that would be quite an eccentric look, but of course perfectly within the rules, no one would actually object to it.
• but a tailored, female suit with a shirt (and no tie) would be very standard.

What would you think of it? is that what you wear?

it's not that different for men, really.
I work in a City office. There is a dress code.

• there is an official one (we have one, it's quite detailed: no jeans, no bare shoulders, no t-shirts etc etc)

• there is also an unofficial one: clothes that are allowed, but make you look unprofessional. EG for women anything leopard skin print. Eg for men anything woolen.

Every company has norms. Ad agencies are different from banks, but there are always norms. It's just life.

You make your choice.

Part of being professional and successsful at work is to conform. Your company looks for and promotes conformists.

So don't wear leopard skin (women) don't wear pullovers (men) and don't show cleavage (both).

OR be an individual and push the boundaries, but you won't get rewarded for that.

Margaret Thatcher got it right. Im not a fan, but do admire her. Professional = look smart. You dont have to look like a man, wear jewellry etc but nothing 'sexual'.

Apparently she still had a strong sexual effect on some men. I think its called POWER