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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is a man accused of rape guilty until proven innocent?

159 replies

APBrasRule · 10/06/2010 10:48

I have listened to a lot of debate about rape over the years and I felt it was a great step forward when a woman who had been raped was given anonymity in court.

However listening to Woman's Hour this morning I felt we now want to change the burden of poof from proof of guilt to the man having to prove he is innocent.

OP posts:
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happysmiley · 29/07/2010 12:53

APBrasRule,

I'm certainly not dismissing your husband's experiences but do have some questions for you.

Does his company's middle management tier have a 50:50 split after the positive discrimination or is it still biased to one sex? In a 50:50 environment, I would expect there to be some poor performing men and women. (Sadly not everyone who gets promoted will be any good.) Is there any evidence that the women managers are poorer performers on average than the men? I think that in general the perception of women's performance is worse than men's even if the evidence is that the actual performance is the same. People seen have higher expectations from women. In politics for example, female ministers are usually judged much more harshly than men.

If your husband still thinks the place is a good one to work for as a man, I'd be surprised if men were being treated worse at work than women. Why does he think that it is still a good place to work if there really is such a strong gender bias in favour of women rather than equality?

Re the man's suspension, that is indeed very sad. I'm surprised that he was advised to resign under the circumstances, given that there wasn't much proof. I've been in the opposite situation were I have made an informal complaint of sexual harassment. Although my manager believed me and was willing to move my harasser to a different team / ensure I no longer had to work with him, I was advised to keep it informal so as not to affect my reputation at work, so it does cut both ways.

vesuvia · 29/07/2010 12:20

APBrasRule, when your husband challenges the managament of his employer about violations of equality legislation, what response does he receive?

ISNT · 29/07/2010 12:14

I am also not sure how his experience in the workplace links in with your views that feminists want the burden of proof changed in rape cases?

ISNT · 29/07/2010 12:12

Is your DHs POV based entirely on his experience in one workplace?

ISNT · 29/07/2010 12:11

Gosh how interesting.

What sector is this company in?

The companies that I have worked for have all been same old/same old re gender pay gap, sexism, etc etc etc. I have mainly been in financial services though.

lemonmuffin · 29/07/2010 11:44

Blimey. that sounds horrendous AP.

I can see your dh's point.

APBrasRule · 29/07/2010 11:27

Ok I over stated, strongly dislikes is a better term than hates. Yes he is a strong advocate of equality in everything; that ability and merit are the only methods that you should judge someone say for a job, not sex, race, religion.

He works for a large US corporate here in the UK. He has seen over the last 10 years a number of his male colleagues discriminated against because they are men. Rubbish I here you all shout. Well they have a ?positive promotion? system for women in middle management. So during that time most promotions into 1st line and 2nd line management have been women. There have been some very able women promoted, but there have been a quite a few women who simply should not be there. I know a lot of the people at my husbands office both men and women, and there is an increasing dissatisfaction with women mangers who cannot manage. Just because we are women does not mean that if we want to do something we will be good at it.

There have also been a number of men dismissed after being accused of sexist behaviour. I know one of them personally and sexist he is not. However he upset a female technician in some way. She made an accusation that he made a sexist comment. It was her word against his; he was immediately suspended while an enquiry was undertaken. He was advised later off the record that he should leave and if he resigned he would get a good reference. No one asked him what had happened, there were no independent witnesses. He has a wife and 3 DD?s, his wife teaches but her salary was not enough. They had to sell the house all 3 DD were born in and move. We still see them regularly and all I can say is his wife would really like to meet the woman who accused her husband.

When my husband joined the company in the 80?s it was totally merit based, there were women at all levels include the main board in the US. The only place that women were few and far between was in the site engineers. They were on call 24 hours a day its heavy and often very dirty work and they simply could not get many women to do the job.

Now if you a man it?s still a good place to work or so my husband says. However while a woman can say ?all men are bastard? if she or a girlfriend has been dumped, if a man says anything that may be construed as sexist either by the recipient or if someone over hears and accusation is made, then that man will be ?let go?.

None of this happened over night. It?s the result of very small changes that looked reasonable and proper but all in one direction. The company is held up in the US as a feminist success story.

Now you tell me what?s the difference between equality and feminism?

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HerBeatitude · 28/07/2010 20:07

"I have always been a passionate believer in equality, and by the way so is my husband. He hates feminists, but I have never met anyone who is more equality focused than he is."

Er, seeing as how feminists want to be considered equal human beings to men, what is it exactly that your husband hates about feminists? The demand for equal pay? The demand not to be raped? The wish that society is organised so that women are not disadvantaged because they are women?

Anyone who "hates" feminists, can't actually be that keen on equality. Or if he is, he obviously knows sweet FA about feminists and feminism.

ISNT · 28/07/2010 18:51

"I genuinely believe that feminism has changed its focus from equality to special dispensation from the law (and revenge?) over and above equality. "

The examples backing this up are... That there are women only health clubs and a women only writers retreat.

Does this evidence really bring to light a "subtle" shift towards women getting special dispensation in the law, and revenge? I really don't think that it does.

Men go off and do "men only" stuff all the time, but you want to take away the "women only" sessions at the local pool? On the basis that feminists have gone too far this time with their women only writing retreat. Really?

Prolesworth · 28/07/2010 13:42

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TheButterflyEffect · 28/07/2010 13:24

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vesuvia · 28/07/2010 12:44

APBrasRule wrote "my husband. He hates feminists"

How depressing.

threelittlepebbles · 28/07/2010 12:11

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APBrasRule · 28/07/2010 11:56

"Prolesworth" said " Think the OP popped in to do a bit of stirring and has now buggered off tbh."

Sorry not so I've been away at my Mother in Law?s with my husband sorting out a care home for her. I've had too much to do and in any case she doesn?t have a computer and I use a desk top at home not a laptop so I cannot take the internet with me.

My post was not to do some stirring as you say, but I genuinely believe that feminism has changed its focus from equality to special dispensation from the law (and revenge?) over and above equality. It has been subtle and slow but there are so many instances. Women only health clubs, remember the feminist outcry over men only clubs? On the news last night (Midlands Today) there was an article about a writers retreat all expenses found, but only women could apply. Who here would stand for it if it was men only? If a woman makes a sexist joke/comment and a man complains he is at best ignored or told to "get a life" "grow up" etc, a man does the same and he loses his job.

The rape issue worried me al lot as I felt we were moving to set the seen for a latter enshrining "women don?t lie about rape, therefore accusation is evidence of guilt". And if you believe women don't lie, which planet are you on?

I have always been a passionate believer in equality, and by the way so is my husband. He hates feminists, but I have never met anyone who is more equality focused than he is. His mother says he always was even as a child he always thought it stupid if one person was treated different from another based on sex or race or any arbitrary reason, and would have many intense arguments with his dad (who was a bigot) over the years. He often puts me to shame.

OP posts:
sethstarkaddersmum · 14/06/2010 13:26

(for making a false accusation I mean, because someone has decided she must have been lying just because the man got off)

sethstarkaddersmum · 14/06/2010 13:26

and when you talk about how there are all these rapes that go unpunished everyone ignores you because they assume you are talking about woman-changed-her-mind/her-word-against-his/no-other-evidence date rapes. When in fact there are gang rapes, stranger rapes, violent rapes with injuries, etc etc that still don't get convictions (and even ones where the woman gets in trouble )

dittany · 13/06/2010 09:26

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ImSoNotTelling · 13/06/2010 08:40

Exactly right.

The stranger/violent rapes are still the only ones that result in a conviction.

We like to think that we are so enlightened and far ahead of some other parts of the world, but actually we just don't talk about it.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 12/06/2010 21:34

It feels like we're not that far - in terms of mindset - from countries where a woman who has been raped will be punished for adultery. There's no way out, and a lot of it is because of the sexual purity bullshit which still has an effect. I mean, if it's her boyfriend/husband/anyone she's ever had sex with who raped her - well, she must have consented! And if it wasn't - well, what she was she doing within 50 yards of a strange man anyway!

ImSoNotTelling · 12/06/2010 19:48

Yes I remember that case well.

It was appalling. She had shared this certain sexual fantasy, and arranged to meet one man for a consensual encounter. Then she was gang raped and the judge threw it out because of her fantasy.

The idea is as old as the hills - it comes back to the fact that she as a woman dared to have her own sexual desires and to share them with others, and that obviously she was therefore promiscous/immoral etc and deserved what they did to her.

How can we eradicate all this rape myth stuff?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 12/06/2010 14:03

It is becoming more and more clear that the justice system has an institutional bias against women reporting crimes done by men. It seems a woman has to be dead for the police/CPS/courts to believe that someone bad has been done to her. If there's breath left in her, it's all open to question apparently. She is lying about the whole thing, did it to herself, "provoked" him, was too drunk to be rapeable, probably consented but went to the police when she "regretted" it (has this EVER happened?), probably consented but was worried about what her boyfriend would think, probably consented but then wanted "revenge". He was tired, drunk, stressed, "under pressure at work", depressed, not his usual self, irritable because he'd given up smoking, going through a difficult time, or thought she wanted it because she dared to make eye contact with him.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 12/06/2010 13:56

Do you remember that other judge who threw out a case because the women who had been gang-raped had previously exchanged messages about fantasies of group sex with one of the men over the internet. This despite the fact that she had clearly arranged to meet up with this one bloke. THe judge didn't even let it be considered in court. Who, if not a judge, should know the difference between sex and rape? Let alone between "imaginary" sex, and real actual rape being done to a woman. It's disgusting and FRIGHTENING. The judge is ignoring so many things, among them the simple and (one would hope ) obvious fact that consenting to sex with one man doesn't = consenting to sex with every man.

ImSoNotTelling · 12/06/2010 09:28

Have been thinking about Dittany's comment about the burden of proof being more for rape than other crimes and remember something from a while back

It was how in a case the judge had directed the jury, not that they had to be sure beyond a reasonable doubt, but that they had to be absolutely 100% sure. So of course the only verdict possible was not guilty.

If things like that are going on in rape trials then it needs to be looked at as well. We cannot have situations where the judge feels sorry for teh man and thinks that it is a terrible crime to be accused of (which it is) and thus directs the jury that they cannot convict unless they are absolutely sure, due to the consequences for the defendent.

If it is the case that a few/some/many rape trials are being conducted like this, then that needs to be addressed urgently.

HerBeatitude · 11/06/2010 22:29

"However listening to Woman's Hour this morning I felt we now want to change the burden of poof from proof of guilt to the man having to prove he is innocent."

The however in that sentence, implies to me that the OP doesn't agree with the proposition she says she "feels" was being discussed on WH.

Which it wasn't.

scottishmummy · 11/06/2010 21:39

doh,posts responding to op and thread title.