I consider myself a feminist...and a housewife.

"If it's anti feminist to want to look after the children that your body has bourne, then feminism is anti female" - Here Here!!

just because it doesn't earn money, doens't mean its valueless. it was men after all that made the capitalist system. women would never been stupid enough to make a system that would make them reliant on others if they fulfill their biological function. it's the devluing of femininity that makes people think that looking after your kids is not as valuable as earning dosh.

and if you and your partner have an equal relationship, they are your kids and it's all your money - you are equals, no matter who earns the cash.

what a load of bollox it is to say women who stay at home are not feminists.

If it's anti feminist to want to look after the children that your body has bourne, then feminism is anti female.

I don't think that staying at home with one's children should be a huge political statement, nor do I think that it's letting the side down if one does.

I have a friend who went back to work after 3 months and was happy enough, but now that her youngest is 2 years old, wants to spend time with her, so has quit her job. I have another friend who went back to work after 6 months and is happy being full time.

In any case, don't agree that mutual respect is based on money. Of course money can be power, but depends on a such a wide range of factors as to whether it's power in a relationship.

Well thats what he said, he lived in Japan a few years with her and there son and came back about 4 years ago, I have no idea how old his son is tho.

Maybe thats how it was 10 years ago, or maybe she was taking him for a fool and he didn't realise.

doesn't sound like equality either way to me...

But it helps achieve fairness at home. If your income is pin money Mr Big Penis will call all the shots. Tis always the way. If he earns 10% of what you do it's much harder for him to force you to do all the boring domestic stuff and clean the toilets.

I don't think that more money and power equates to being a better human or happier, Xenia... Enough money to live comfortably, and enough education and skills to have power over your own destiny in the time and place in which you live are what most reasonable people are pretty content with.

You are confusing patriarchy and capitalism. Women can be assertive, successful and believe we are a culture and species with hierarchies, with the survival of the fittest and still be feminist. Indeed it's arguably anti feminist to say there is some wonderful utopia where women stay home and clean bottoms and mop floors and serve men and that this is a wonderful choice which benefits women. Instead those women have been influenced by men and propaganda to think dusting teh house is huge fun and changing the baby 15 times a day. How can they possibly think that? I just don't udnerstand it. They are the ones who have in a sense been trapped by men or mothers who have persuaded them service at home is a gorgeous female and femininst choice. That's a ludicrous positoin that only desperate housewives would try to suggest is a choice and feminist.

Of course if you were never up to much at work I can see that cleaning the toilets at heathrow at 5am might be less fun than cleaning your own at home and doing the family washing. So people of either sex make their own choices but housewife as feminist just does't cut the mustard. Women choosing to stay home take a moral choice which damages all women and their daughters in this crucial stage when women are trying to make gains in various careers at higher levels.

Work is fun and exciting. it's not a capitalist rat race. We aren't all socialist and plenty of women have a great time in their careers. It's much more fun tha cooking the nth meal for ironing a shirt for most of us and let's remember most women including those with under 5s do choose to work in the UK.

(I was asked about breastfeeding - life is full of compromise for all of us whether male or female and yes I preferred breastfeeding to expressing but I could take a 40 or 50 year view and see that to have the fun in my career and benefit my children thereby from then (I was 22 when I breastfed my oldest) to now age 48 to say age 75 when I retire or whatever it was worth some months of expressing at the times I wasn't home. I remember buying a book in 1984 called Working and breastfeeding or something like that. I had an electric breastpump which I kept in my bag at work and freezer ice pack etc. and the babies had that when I was out at work but because of the hard work etc in my 20s when I came to have more children i was working for myself so the nanny brought the twins to me when I was working unless I was out at a meeting.

I enjoyed breastfeeding plenty of full time working women do. The more mnoey and power you have in all cultures in all times in history the better you do whatever your gender. This is life, naked in tooth and claw. This is how we are and how we are made, not some namby pamby love each other love fest.

Rainbow, I remember her mentioning she'd breastfed, but trying to figure out how.

I believe Xenia breastfed for a long time. It is perfectly possible to do so and work full time.

Just a pedant note - the WHO don't recommend bf up to 2 years but to 2 years and beyond.

Xenia it is a shame that you have so much contempt for women who make different choices to yours, because lots of what you say is quite sensible if terribly idealistic.

Forcing women into the capitalist rat race as the only way to achieve equality is little better than forcing them to stay at home (and equally patriarchal I fear).

Fantastic post gardenpath.

GP thank you for saying in such an articulate way the thoughts and half formed ideas that have been running round my head!

"...but you're choosing work society values at zero..."

No, Xenia, it's work men value at zero, and you apparently. Your attitudes and views merely uphold, support and collaborate with the Patriarchy. Perpetuating the notion that domestic and child rearing rolls, the very backbone of every society, are of no account or value and ?dull? therefore, we should all strive for 'money and power' (through real work) so that some other woman (undoubtedly), lower in the social hierarchy, can do these lowly and demeaning tasks for us. Presumably your notion of feminism doesn?t apply to them. That?s why men had wives which got us into this mess in the first place. You?re doing nothing to change any of this, or alter attitudes, you?re joining in.
And it may surprise you that some women have children, not because it?s ?slightly more pleasant than a minimum wage job? but because they want to rear them themselves, without recourse to ?slaves?, ?servants? or ?the lowest of the low? to use your words; the very idea. I question how much you valued the rearing of your own children if you were willing to relegate the task to such people.

And it is your own Patriarchal attitudes which are ?anti-feminist? and ?ruinously damaging? to the millions of women worldwide who do this work, whether through choice or not, low- or un-paid and certainly unthanked, subsidising society, men and people like you so you can maintain your privileged position and lifestyle. You may be a woman but you?re no feminist and certainly no sister.

"Shouldn't feminists be working on re-structuring society in a way that values women's contribution to it, rather than forcing women to re-structure themselves in order to fit into a patriarchal society?"

Well said, Sakura. It's our society, too.

LAst question for Xenia,
don't you think all the faff with expressing breastmilk, which is extremely difficult to do, is all part of women having to conform to a society structured by men. I breastfed DD till she was 1.9 months and am still breastfeeding DS and I've only ever managed to express on bottle in my life. IT was difficult and time-consuming. Breastfeeding is a learned skill anyway, so why should women have to learn another. MOst of the reason women fail to breastfeed is not because they had no milk but because they didn't have access to a lactation consultant, and society makes it difficult for them to feed in public, which is very shocking in the 21st century. I think there's something obscene about it bring more acceptable to bottle-feed in public than breastfeed.
Shouldn't feminists be working on re-structuring society in a way that values women's contribution to it, rather than forcing women to re-structure themselves in order to fit into a patriarchal society?

it's not 4 grand for the birth, unless she decided to go to a fancy hospital with a French menu and a "famous" doctor or something like that.

desperate

"I think the main reason for the low birth rate in Japan is money, "

Who told you that ???!! They are desparate for women to give birth. YOu get a flat out cash sum as a "gift" of about 2 grand. MOst of it gets spend on the clinic or hospital (if you have a midwife birth like I did you get change). That covers a 5 day stay in the hospital of your choice, meals etc. 7 pre-natal visits are free if there is no problem with the pregnancy.　If there'S A problem you get more help.

"Xenia, how does one breastfeed exclusively and on demand if 'out' at work? "

Good question, Xenia, and one I've been wanting to ask for a while. The WHO reccomends breastfeeding for two years. Breastfeeding builds a baby's body and brains. The negative effects of FF are huge, though not politically correct to say so because some women aren't able to breastfeed and need to use it. I should imagine there would be a dramatic drop in breastfeeding if women didn't take time off to be with their babies.

Or is your point that man - made milk is an adequate replacement for breastmilk? Is this another devaluation of what women do?

No I'm not Japanese I've just been calling myself Ryoko the demon caller on forums for years.

Yes we have had a predominantly white male dominated sociality for hundreds of years but I still think giving people jobs based on skin colour or sex to balance things out causes more trouble then it solves, rather people seeing that women can do the job just as well or better it will be seen as "they get given better then us" and create more sexism.

I think the main reason for the low birth rate in Japan is money, they have to pay for everything, I was told by a man at work who married a japanese women that it's £10 for a doctors appointment, £50 when you see the doctor, 4 grand for the birth and theres no benefits or maternity pay or anything.

Xenia, how does one breastfeed exclusively and on demand if 'out' at work?

That's the only issue I have with women/men staying at home, or WOHM/SAHM really.

Enhanced maternity rights for women damage women and are not feminist. All they do is ghetto women within relationships nito service roles. If we gave men more rights which could not be transferred in the UK or we gave UK women in the public sector what the private sector gets (just 6 weeks at 90% pay and thereafter a pittance) then things might improve.

Staying at home is a political anti feminist choice which ruinously damages other women, a kick in the teeth to your daughters and women who worked hard to get women into senior roles. By all means take the choice but you're choosing work society values at zero which is so dull women in all times and cultures outsource childcare and cleaning as soon as they have money and power because it's dull. It may well be more pleasant than a minimum wage job if that is all the woman would ever have had but it is not a feminist choice.

Totally agree with you tortoise re positve discrimination.

I'm always amused by people who think that positive discrimination is a new thing. You don't think positive discrimination in favour of men hasn't existed for centuries? You think perhaps that men are in fact just naturally smarter and better at being (eg) MPs? Because if you don't think that, you'd have to admit that the reason male MPs are where they are, is as a result of positive discrimination.

It's just that the word 'discrimination' wasn't used until it was applied in favour of women.