I consider myself a feminist...and a housewife.

xenia, I do understand what you mean by staying at home is not a feminist choice. But if feminism is about being reactionary ? responding to men and a man's world ? rather than than being FEMALE, living a life that feels good to me, as a woman who bore a child, then I'd rather not consider myself a feminist, because being a feminist would be being anti-female, and much more about responding to men's shit than responding to what it feels like to me female.

"But it does have implications for the wider world if you stay home. It's not a feminist choice."

OK, so if I go out to work looking after your children, that's a feminist choice, yeah?

Then I spend my wages paying for someone else to look after my children while I'm out working looking after yours.

Why would there be no female doctors or other professionals because women choose to stay at home for a few years? Why can't they train for their careers after their children are old enough not to need full time care?

Oh, yes, that's right, it's because older people are apparently incapable of learning new things

TurnedintoanITprofessionalattheageof45RustyBearxx

(with apologies to DawnTigga for nicking her sign-off style)

also, if you are a socialist, you don't think doctors should mop floor alongside cleaners (or that cleaners should perform operations!), but you think that the value of both jobs is equal.

Xenia, is it just because men don't value the "boring" work women do at home that you don't?

It might be 'fun' for the lucky few. Not for the less fortunate many.

You still haven't explained the contradictions in your statements Xenia.

But it does have implications for the wider world if you stay home. It's not a feminist choice. I would never stop anyone syaing they are a feminist internally and housewives may have more time to march, point out sexism, fly to Saudi to demonstrate about legislation against women and all that stuff but it's not a very femininst list choice to serve a man and children. It lets the side down.

Society has always had structures. Most women as sono as they get any money or power pay others whether female or male slaves or servants to do do jobs they don't want to do. Why shoudln't they? It's perfectly natural. You don't have to be a socialist thinking doctors shoudl mop floors with hospital cleaners to be a feminist. You can be a capitalist feminist. It's fun.

Oh well. Guess I'm not a feminist.

I think it's fine to be at home with the children, but seems there's a misconception that some women who stay at home are in the 1950s mold.

"I was saying women have always worked. Roman women left their babies with slaves. Medieval women sent them out to wet nurses. Indian women in Africa use African servants. Arabs i Dubai use filipinos. Middleclass non working women with rich husbands in the UK have au pairs and nannies. Women don't want to do these dull things so they find others to do them and I'm not surprised."

So tell me, are the slaves, wet nurses, African servants, Filipinos, au pairs and nannies listed above men or women? Are they doing work? Is their choice to do this work a 'feminist choice'? Or don't these women count in your world?

I was saying women have always worked. Roman women left their babies with slaves. Medieval women sent them out to wet nurses. Indian women in Africa use African servants. Arabs i Dubai use filipinos. Middleclass non working women with rich husbands in the UK have au pairs and nannies. Women don't want to do these dull things so they find others to do them and I'm not surprised.

Taking on the domestic sphere because you are female and choose to is not advancing any feminist cause. Saying I will do dull domestic work because it is a choice and awful capitalism says practising surgery or doing difficult interesting journalist work is better but that is wrong and housework is lovely just sounds like cloud cuckoo land to me. Real feminists enjoy good careers and have fun out earning men. They don't stay home ironing his socks.

Now you're contradicting yourself. One minute you are saying "There is no natural order of woman at home not working looking after children" and the next you are saying that looking after children is "boring and hard work".

If is so boring and hard work most women now and in the past get others to do it as soon as they can. It's dradful dull work. Most of us like it a bit, adore to cuddle the childern and like some hours to bond with them but not day in and day out and not to pretend it's any kind of an interesting job for a woman.

Xenia, fundamental error in your argument: the refusal to accept that rearing and caring for children IS work.

kneedeep is right that many women are too reliant on men financially. But we can't be too much of a love in on all this women together, lovely choice you all make because if all women chose to be home we would lose all the gains women had made and in effect prove that women prefer to be of service, a woman's place is in the home and we would be back where we started. No way is vbeing a housewife a feminist choice. It feels like 1984 or Brave New World type lies for anyone to suggest that.

I don't agree that we have had a short capitalist phase. Women in the UK worked on the land originally and after that in homes and factories. They have always worked. Women in jungles work. Women in many cultures support families and men whilst men occasionally hunt but women have in many cultures even done most of the work - exploited by men even over that whilst men sit around polishing their spears. There is no natural order of woman at home not working looking after children. Sexist men don't need to opine when the mumsnetters are there doing their job for them saying all these women can take a choice to be housewives.

What proportino of housewives would you lot be happy with? if you love it presumably you want your daughters to do it too. Would you be happy if 50% of women gave upwork or never worked? if they are giong to be hosuewives what is the point in educating them. Should we not give more university places to boys in that case and classes in houw to cook good food an work the washing machine and how to look pretty for your husband for women?

The assumption is women in professional careers will be a good example. But most of my friends have mothers, grand mothers and in my case, a great grandmother, university educated and with a career. We know what it looks like for a woman to go out to work and be a high achiever.

Don't have the figures, but domestic violence/abuse isn't solely the monopoly of the woman who stays at home. It happens to professional women also, and in fact was reading somewhere that it's under reported by professional women.

I just think it should not be considered a huge political statement, or anti feminist, if a woman wants to be at home with her children and reject the premise that it's harmful to one's children to have a mother at home.

Regarding bonsoirs point, there are a lot of neanderthals out there, unfortunately. To not be reliant on a neanderthal, a woman has to earn money. It's shit but true. doesn't mean women who stay at home don't have value. I'm a very lucky woman (I do work a bit, but at home, and my DS is my job number 1 that I bend my money earning work around) whose DH values for the work that I do, and thinks the money he earns from the work that he does belongs to both of us, just as the results of the work that I do belong to both of us. But I'm not kidding myself that this is everyones experience ? I know I'm incredibly lucky in the partner I found, and many women don't have this experience. What Xenia says about women having to put up with neanderthal behaviour from men because they are financially reliant on them is A REALITY. But as women together, let's not get caught up in the unfairness of capitalism so much that we jointly undervalue our bodies and the work we do in the home. That's a bit divide and rule, isn't it?

Xenia, your points are completely valid. This is the problem with a capitalist system ? only money, the the power to earn it is valuable.

However, capitalism aside, a woman is a woman. What her body does is important, whether or not this is recognised withing capitalism or not. Capitalism is just a stupid system that has been around for a small amount of time in our history. Women, for as long as our race lives (questionable how much longer that will be) will always bear children. This is valuable, regardless of the stupid system that we live in that doesn't allow women to do this without making them reliant on someone else.

Women are remarkable, and make important and valuable contributions to society in the ways you have outlined ? yes, I'd want a female doctor etc. But these are not the only women to value. Women who choose to make homes and bring up children are just as important to our race as those who spend the hours making a different type of contribution. It's the fact that their work is seen as less valuable than the work of those women who make money that is anti female. It's really the same as valuing anyone who makes more money more than someone who makes less or makes none ? only this is about the value of the female biological function.

And of course women who work also raise their families! No one in their right minds would be saying that! It doesn't mean that women who work love their kids less, or do a worse job at child rearing. It would be brainless to be that simplistic ? just as brainless as saying women who stay at home are anti-feminist.

errr good for you... whats the problem again?

As I said, you just don't get it.

But that's the nice theory. On loads of mumsnets threads every day you hear from women powerless at home with no income. Someone even said the other day I don't work, I have no income, I couldn't leave him because I can't afford to and therefore I'll tolerate the 5 hours a night computer gaming or whatever it was.

So those who think being a housewife is a good feminist choice what if all women made that choice ,..okay.. would you be happy with that - you'd never be seen by a female doctor, never have a female pilot drive you, you'd have male shop assistants, board of directors 100% male and all the women would be making a feminist choice not to work outside the house and do the perfectly good valued work of cleaning the house and minding children? Taht just prove surely that it is a political and anti feminist choice to become a housewife. It does other women very little good.

And most parents whatever their gender care for and bring up their children including the majority of parents who work by the way. Never let it be said that working parents don't bring up chidlren.

Xenia - you just don't get it, do you....

I don't agree one little bit. Achieving fairness at home is down to love, respect and negotiation skills - human values and education. You must have only known Neanderthals, Xenia, if you don't think that...

"If it's anti feminist to want to look after the children that your body has bourne, then feminism is anti female" - Here Here!! Hear Hear!!