So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

Rivenan abaya and niqab or a burqa is not movement restricting like a kimono. A burqa does restrict vision though and I'd never wear one but there's almost nothing an abaya/niqab combo stops a woman doing.

Yes, I was specifically referring to the burqua, not other muslim headsarves and veils (sorry, I don't know what they're all called). Just the burqua I don't like. But as you said, if the burqua happened to come from a culture where women held a lot of power and rights, more than our culture, it would be regarded as a symbol of liberation; but because it comes from a country that's in a complete mess, particularly in regard to women's rights, we associate it with oppression.

Xenia, ermmm the Prophet of Islam was not rich....hahaha about him being rich, when he died he left behind nothing of material wealth, the meagre effects he owned were considered charity, his wives and children were not able to make material claims due to being his relatives.

All the wives, the children, and the Prophet (pbuh) worked with their hands and did their own work, the only one of his wives who was wealthy was wealthy thro her own business ventures and not financially reliant on the Prophet (pbuh).
There is a very famous story of the Pophet's favourite daughter, she sent her husband to her father to ask for a slave to help her with the household chores, as she had to work so hard she had developed painful calouses, instead her father came to her and taught her a prayer to give her courage and strength, and he instructed her with patience, and told her that the wealth of this world was not for them (himself included).......

The women at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) looked to his wives for religious guidance and advice, and would have emulated their dress and followed their advice on matters or gone to the Prophet directly for advice or rulings.

The Prophet (pbuh) died without a penny to his name his bowl and his clothing would have bewen given away in charity. During his life time he used to help with the household chores and mend his own clothing himself, altho I bet there would not have been a single person around him who would have refused to do these for him.

Many forms of organised religions have a long and ignoble history of oppressing/abusing women and children. And many followers of those religions are conditioned to accept oppressive practices.

But the state can't go around banning people from wearing their religious uniforms. Or at least only if that same state is prepared, for example, to ban the wearing of preposterously high heels (dangerous, disabling and the product of another form of conditioning)

Only the rich like the wives of the Prophet wore a scarf. you can't do manual work properly and work in feels in silly head coverings. It is not an Islamic requirement. Plenty of Muslims would agree with me but as I said above I wouldn't ban it. Loads of Muslims come to the UK because we are tolerant of difference and always have been as a nation which is more than can be said for some foreign states. The planet is full of Muslim women who don't cover their head at all. They can be very good muslims.

But as for what feminism means - it's principal starting point is equal rights under the law of the state. Allowing women to vote, to own property, to become surgeons, to work, to own money, have their own bank accounts.

Riven, most of the Bangali sisters I know wear headscarves, there are some sisters amongst us from various nationalities who don't, none of us judge it's our own decision really.

I'm very wary of the blnaket fatwas that certain 'scholars' issue, I've heard the bizarrest rulings and the high heels ban was one of the more normal ones!! I tend to only accept rulings which I can find backed up with hadith and Quran, otherwise I seek a second opinion.

I seem to remember some scholar (no name from me either, sorry) who after 9/11 said that if women feard to be picked on/abused because they were wearing a headscarf they could abstain but I do not think it was meant to be forever IYSWIM.

Hurrah - the thread moved on from Islam bashing to intelligent discussion!

"Feminism however, is about choice. REAL choice.

Some people on here need to accept that many women may make choices that do not fit with the ideals of white, heterosexual, CofE, middle class women though."

Thanks for that Amber. I get cross that the thinking seems to be if you don't be behave in a certain way. i.e. in a manner decided on your behalf by other women - "proper feminists", that you are anti-feminist and are somehow letting the side down....

All the Pakistani sisters I meet in the mosque do wear a headscarf. I do not know any Bengladeshi sister (yet).

Asalaamu Alaikum Riven, what sort of scholars are they? from some sect? just asking out of interest.

Excellent post Amber.

I would go further and say that most cultures oppress women. For example, I live in Switzerland (the country that recently banned the construction of minarets ). Women are discriminated in a million subtle little ways- from the absence of maternity pay, to schools closing at lunchtime, to ridiculous bylaws such as not being able to mow your lawn or use the washing machine in the evenings or at weekends.

Yet on the surface of things- atheist and highly modern society. Not a headscarf in sight (unless it's Hermes, of course)

'There is argument even about whether it's even required'

no, there isn't. no scholar will say a headscarf isn't required.

The early muslim women used to cover their faces. don't know if all of them did though. when the verses about covering were revealed. they did start covering fully.

here is some evidence

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282

Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba (Radhiallaahu Ánha):
"Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces''

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Hadith # 368
Narrated 'Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) used to offer the Fajr prayer and some believing women covered with their veiling sheets used to attend the Fajr prayer with him and then they would return to their homes unrecognized .

so its not just a cultural thing, covering the face or wearing burqa is a religious thing too and extremely important for many women.

Almost all religion oppresses women and this is particularly true of the abrahamic faiths.

Feminism however, is about choice. REAL choice.

Some people on here need to accept that many women may make choices that do not fit with the ideals of white, heterosexual, CofE, middle class women though.

"what normal little girl wants to have something tied to her head?"

DD is now 11 goes to a school where she is the only muslim girl. She decided when she was 8 to wear a scarf (she sometimes does not wear it) and certainly not through my example as I was not wearing one until 6 month ago.

"Anyway I think the conclusion of most people was the British will and ought not to ban particular clothing but we are all lucky to be free to point out the sexism in most major religions and indeed within many marriages of aethists in the UK."

I am not 100% sure I understand this passage, some punctuation would help , but I think I fully agree

How did you wear a headscarf in order for it to blinker you?

My headscarf has never ever impeded my vision, you must tie yours in a rather interestng manner!

My girls wear headscarves, they fight over my headscarves and play dress up in them, it's got so bad I've bought them their own and asked them to leave mine alone!

I much prefer having a cotton head covering to having direct sunlight on my head.

Next time you have to go somewhere where you have to wear a headscarf, try a one piece ameera head scarf in cotton material, you just pull it over your head and don't have to faff around with pins it tends to stay put as well, unless you have a hair cut which sticks up.

Well I got paid and I've children to feed. My principles aren't that deep and anyway it was a good chance to show British women and everyone was really nice to me.

It's blinkers like people put on horses to stop them moving to the side.

The issues over Turkey on this are interesting and there it was indeed very liberating when there was whatever ban they have on it in universities. That did work rather well in ensuring a more secular and free society but that was coming from a different history from here.

Anyway I think the conclusion of most people was the British will and ought not to ban particular clothing but we are all lucky to be free to point out the sexism in most major religions and indeed within many marriages of aethists in the UK.

"what normal little girl wants to have something tied to her head?"

My best friend's daughter goes to a school with a very high proportion of muslim children; many many girls in her class wear a head scarf. She would love nothing more than to wear one, too.

May I add that in hot countries most people, men and women, wear some form of head covering to protect themselves from the sun.

I understand what you're saying wrt to it being an obligation for all women of all faiths- that's wrong. Just as wrong as banning all women of all faiths from wearing one.

I wasn't given choice in Iran so it wasn't each to their own, was it and what normal little girl wants to have something tied to her head?

It was very thin. It was still very hot.

It was thin but I couldn't hear so well.

It cuts off your side vision. How can it not? That's very curtailing. It may be that it's like someone has spent their life in a wheel chair or they've been blind since birth so they don't understand how much it is limiting them but it does limit. british women of a certain kind used to wear headscarves. I can remember a few of my mother's friends as a child. But I stand by the fact they are limiting and have an effect and make a difference between you and a man. How can something covering the ear not stop the hearing in business meetings? It's like putting part of an ear plug over the ear. Given the religion doesn't demand it it seems a ridiculous thing to do to yourself, not to be able to see so well, be hot and not be able to hear quite so well.