So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

The prospect is a bit scary Riven, as I am not usually good to convey that message either but if you link to it I will at least lurk.

This fundamental issue that men might be wrong I don't like. I think it's not fair on men to say that and it also implies sexism. I believe in nuclear power. I think wars can sometimes be justified and that sometimes we have to kill for the greater good. Those aren't male values. People hold the values. I don't think women are some completely different species and if we were in charge suddenly the world would be better.

french Feminist group called "the Bitches (female dog) ward(note that in English it has been translated to "she-Ward" which IMHO is much more appropriate)

I only could find the translation in English of the Manifesto (clic Manifesto and you then have on the bottom left the choice of English)

While I think their fight is most definitely right, the way they go about it is so so wrong.

I think the following two examples of actions taken by "Les chiennes de guard" tie really well with Sakura's point about women feeling valued without having to emulate men. Especially if you think that what the men are doing is wrong, since everybody is aware that two wrongs hardly ever make a right.

• for every woman who is called a bitch all women should feel insulted themselves.

I totally agree but then why call themselves bitches ward???

• We want to preserve the dignity of women.

By wolf whistling at men and swearing at men who hold the door for you? dignity indeed

I am for a world where men and women respect each other not a world where I should be proud to swear because men do it.

My goodness - I am very impressed that this is still going! And there such a lot of thoughtful/thought provoking posts too. I asked to be educated and I certainly have been. I have been doing a bit of background reading when I have a mo too. Thank you!

Actually, come to think about it, in Japan there seems to be one set of rules for some women (the lotus-flower type) and another set for another type of woman (very butch). I've no idea what factors contribute to little girls identifying with one or the other.

inferior

"It's a ridiculous culture"

Your sweeping statements always make me smile...Yes, there are ridiculous parts about it... But you'll be pleased to know that in Asian period films and dramas(chinese and Japanese) that I see here women are often on the battlefield. The CHinese films have women leading troops, though I've never seen a Japanese woman leading troops on a film. And the women are not "eye-candy" like they are in Hollywood films; they have very plain faces and deep voices. There are martial arts designated for women, like "Naginata". It's a huge and heavy staff with a long, sharp blade at the tip of it. But if a woman wanted to do a traditionally male martial art, that would not be considered strange. My daughter's favourite cartoon consists of 3 superhero girls.

I think that's a good example of how culture can get lost in translation and we can apply it to western people's indignation at the Islamic dress. You can't just take one aspect of a culture and write the whole culture off as being inferiour.

Walking behind the man is not an islamic law it's etiquette, I don't know many Muslims men or women who insist upon it, or practice it! Actually to be very honest I dont know one single Muslim couple who do this at all!

Hijab is no different than throwing a jacket on for Muslim women, it's just more covering so I can do my tesco shop in my pyjamas without being chucked out (anyone read that story of the mum who went shopping in tesco in her pyjamas and got thrown out for it, she was wearing tescos pyjamas too!).

Discussing and debating the merits of hijab is fair enough, imposing your views and beliefs on another by forcing them to confirm to what you view is liberated dress is opressive.

Also with regards what various muslims have to say on the matter of hijab and niqab, and the quotes from muslims that have been pasted on here, a knowledgeable scholar in training put it very well when she said
"I think the world would be a much better place if people understood just one basic principle of practicing Islam which is 'la inkaara fi masa'il ikhtilaafiyah' - that a lay person does not have the right to condemn or reject another person's acting on a different opinion on an issue in which there is more than one opinion among the scholars. A perfect example of this is hijab/niqab, jilbab/not jilbab, etc, but this extends to so many different areas of practice. We just need to give each other some room to breathe sometimes... "

I must admit that I didn't know the kimono was so restrictive: I think of it (if I ever do think of it!) as a sort of dressing gown affair, with its comfortable overtones.

However, the kimono is not part of everyday dress, is it? It is only worn for special occasions, unlike muslim clothes which are required every time the wearer is in public. Isn't it in the same league at all.

Again: how much do Japanese women do the walking-behind thing? You said that you and your DH were caught unawares at your wedding reception so it doesn't sound like common practice. I'm not saying that it is right but I can't get as uptight about one-offs during cultural events as I do about everydays. One is a nod to the quaint historical past, the other is a current mindset.

"Why shouldn't women be in favour of nuclear power and lead armies? "

For the same reason men shouldn't be in favour of those things: because what a shit world it would be then. Somebody has to say enough!. I don't think trying to be like the men is going to help anyone. God help us if women (and men) do continue go in that direction.

Yes, women are very competent suicide bombers. Most of the suicide bombers in that school in Beslan were Chechen women, whose families had been killed by Russian troops. I don't know if the differences between men and women are nature or nurture but I'm just saying please don't let us emulate men or think that the example men have set is the way we should all live, because then we really are all doomed.

That is terribly sexist Sakura, though isn't it? Why shouldn't women be in favour of nuclear power and lead armies? Women fight well and lead troops. They are as competent and keen suicide bombers as men too as I was saying above.

Of course people in the West know kimonos make it hard to move in but they tend not to wear them that much, and most of our knowledge of women being curtailed by men has been Chinese footbinding. We know all about that. What about Japanese women having to put on stupid high pitch voices because that's the done thing? It's a ridiculous culuture. I'm not saying the British weren't as bad in some ways in our history we just seemed to give rights to women sooner than some other cultures but they are all catching up so it's fine really although women do need to keep fighting for fairness and equality.

And I mention Israel because thats the only country I know where military service is compulsory for girls. I also find women in the military hard to stomach because I just see them as being cannon-fodder. Was it a woman who pressed the button that dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Hiroshima? Nope. If a woman had been in charge that day, would she have made the same decision: to wipe out a city and burn everyone in it to death? I sincerely hope that a woman would not have done that. I can't be sure, though; but all I can do is hope that woman are in some way different to men.

I'm not sure I want women picking up swords like men. Lead by example and all that. I'm horrified that in Israel they sentence not just your sons to death on the battle-field but now your daughters too. That's not equality. That's the big men who create wars using girls as cannon fodder.

WHen I say "cultural oddities" I mean from a western point of view, not that other cultures are odd!

THat woman walking behind the man thing is Japanese too. I apparently made a faux pas on my wedding day by strutting into the reception and through the guest tables ahead of DH. I was "corrected" by the hotel staff. . I gave DH an ear-full later. He was embarrassed that I was asked to do that and he didn't predict it beforehand.

All these Japanese examples I keep thinking of make me more and more sure that the west's horror of all things Islamic is cultural based more than anything else. If most people saw a woman walking through London in a kimono they'd think it was interesting, beautiful, chic (as are a lot of the muslim- style headscarves) and the word "oppressed" wouldn't enter their minds, and yet a kimono is extremely restrictive. YOu can hardly breathe- it ties you in with ropes so you can't bend forward and are forced to do those little tiny steps. This is going to sound strange but it's almost like a kind of masochism. It was too restrictive, not normal at all; like the corsets in Victoria england, I suppose.

But Western society doesn't view the kimono with any real negative connotations, not in the same way they view the muslim headscarf. I wonder why? Is it because the religion has so many members; whereas other cultural oddities like the kimono only exist on a small scale?

Someone here said before that the word "burqa" doesn't have nice connotations and so with her muslim friends she uses a different word. I've been wondering why this was. Is there something lost in translation?

omg an island like canvey island xenia!!!!

I think Xenia was joking, too

This what most women don't want and particularly women who believe in equality. We want to be landmine experts. There's a snake on my island, the island I bought with my own money which I earned, not money given to me by a man. Women can handle their own snakes and their own guns, particularly mulsim women. Their fire arms skills are really coming to the fore and good for them. The burka as military device etc.

Well if someone can handle a sword it would have to be you Xenia (princess warrior and all that)!

These are very feminist issues of course. Should I reject men on dates who do the walking thing on the ground they are sexist pigs and that I can handle my own sword thank you very much?

mumblechum and Xenia - you are both correct. The man walks on the outside (kerbside) to protect a lady not only from splashes but from attack, hence easy access to his sword. It all dates back to the time of horses, carts and highwaymen etc.