So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

"Not seen any who say that on this thread though, thankfully"

Actually, just realised there may be women who say that on this thread, but what I wanted to say was that it's not me. And my point about fighting was by all means go and fight other people in a battle field with weapons. I'd be all in favour for a return of that kind of fighting. BUt what you have these days is a man putting his index finger over a button that will bomb a city full of children. That doesn't take much skill, dexterity or strength, does it? Bring back the days where a woman could take up a sword and defended her honour herself on the battlefield. BUt those days have long gone.

About leading: I think women should lead but not in the model of a male image of what a leader should be.
About money: I think women should make money but that will only happen when men and women stop thinking that what women do is naturally inferior.

So, we're on the same side...

"No, I was expressly the view that religiously I don't think covering a head later in life makes up for the sins of earlier in life or that God could possibly be bothered about what women wear (except perhaps that she / he might be a bit cross that the wonderful bodies he created are hidden away as if they were shameful by the idiocy of mankind)."

Yes, I agree with all that. I am not a muslim but I have discussed Islam with lots of muslims from various backgrounds and countries (male and female) and the one aspect I did not really "get" was the notion point-scoring with God. For example if you manage to convert another person into a muslim you get more points. If there is a GOd I'm not sure he would be too impressed with this line of thinking.

"So you might get some feminists saying women never like to fight or make money or lead but that's pernicious in my view"

Not seen any who say that on this thread though, thankfully

No, I was expressly the view that religiously I don't think covering a head later in life makes up for the sins of earlier in life or that God could possibly be bothered about what women wear (except perhaps that she / he might be a bit cross that the wonderful bodies he created are hidden away as if they were shameful by the idiocy of mankind).

But I certainly would never want to patronise anyone and I can even see the advantage of older women who get fatter and have grey hair finding the burka thing actually quite convenient. The British middle class woman used to wear them all the time when their hair didn't look right.

I also think most women by their 30s and 40s feel more confidant than teenagers and 20 somethings and do what they think is right which is great. It's nicer than being younger I think.

GRRRR I feel I have to come back now. [forget one's pride emoticon]

"I think it's good this thread has a variety of women on it -it's a good thing to hear each other's views" Yes I do too. What I do not like is being patronised for having a different opinion or way of life to yours.

I really do not need people to agree with me, in fact I usually quite enjoy a good debate. I think it ias possible to desagree with someone without showing contempt to them anf felt that you were treating me like an idiot. I might be wrong and over sensitive though, it would not be the first time.

Are you assuming I came to religion late in life? why? I started to wear a scarf later than I would have wanted, that is all. Until very recently I was worried of the opinion of people and did not dare. When "maturing" a little bit I realised that what I wanted and what I thought was right for me was more important than the opinion people I do not even know have of me.

gor, pity to leave but I think it's good this thread has a variety of women on it -it's a good thing to hear each other's views

uma, that's your view but it's not the case that majorities are right. The majority of people int he UK in 1860 thought women should not be allowed to own property or vote. Majorities including in religions can often be wrong and I will be happy to verify to everyone after death and warrant here and now that God made our bodies as they are and thinks it's ridiculous people cover them up. The fact it's usually women who have to cover them up doesn't help feminism either. Show me a religion with more body covering and rules for men than women.

So we don;'t even have Israel with women soldiers. Oh dear. But in the British army thankfully things are changing and eveni f they aren't all allowed to do everythign in practice they are because of troop shortage.

The thing about feminism is that some feminist will be capitalists as I am and some thinking being home baking bread is a nice enough choice and we should hale the woman at home on her knees scrubbing the floor as much as Golda Meir, Benazir Bhutto, or Margaret Thatcher or Angela Merkel. I don't agree - I think we need more women with more choices, more money and more power. Secondly feminists can also be pacifists but not necessarily.

So you might get some feminists saying women never like to fight or make money or lead but that's pernicious in my view. It is like those Victorians I mentioned who all thought women just couldn't cut it as doctors because they were female. Give girls a chance and they can do most things and want to.

"A pregnant woman has to slow down"

When was this rule invented?

Pogleswood,
As far as I can see women have only been able to reach positions of power because of how well they've moulded into the male model of how a person in power should behave.

I am saying that if you are a feminist you have two options: to fight with the men or to be a pacifist and say that any fighting is wrong.
You say that even if women were in power there would still be war but I don't think that war has to be inevitable. Considering men's natural biological differences (testosterone/adrenaline etc)s, and then thinking of the the sheer investment that women make in child-bearing/ giving life compared to men from the very moment they TTC, I think that yes, on the whole we would be better off if men had less power in decision making than they already do. Pregnancy is a waiting game. A pregnant woman has to slow down because creating a new life takes time. The waiting becomes unbearable at the end of the pregnancy and by that point the woman ususally doesn't care about the birth because she just wants the baby out. A man would have a different perception of time during his wife's pregnancy because he doesn't have to slow down. So I think that on the whole women may have a greater understanding of how much it entails to create a life; and a greater perception of how much would be lost you blasted a city with an atom bomb: how many pregnancies, how many childbirths...

Is war an exclusively male activity then? I agree that historically men have been the ones doing the fighting,but women in positions of power haven't been notable on the whole for their peaceful and non violent approach,IMO.
If you accept at any level the idea of a just war,then surely women should be prepared to contribute,including fighting if necessary,and any army needs back up staff - if you are saying "women should not contribute to war" they shouldn't be in the forces at all. If you are saying "women should not be exposed to the risk of injury/death because they are women",I find that illogical!
I'm not at all convinced that a society without men would be a war free utopia.

"This is entirely untrue. a) Women do not fight 'on the front lines'. They work at checkpoints, deskjobs, etc.
b) women are initially drafted but it takes a 5 minute interview to request and receive a dispensation - I know - because I have one. "

Ah, I see, sorry.
What is the thinking behind distinguishing men and women's work in the Israeli army? Is it out of respect for women's child-bearing capabilities or is it because they believe the front-line is "dangerous" for women?

No I agree that all things male shouldn't be hated, and if you knew me IRL you would know that I don't hate men. I have lots of brothers, a very close gay friend, my DH and they are the loves of my life.

But the reason I swing so far the other way in these discussions is because it's generally agreed by all (apart from feminists) that male viewpoints are people's viewpoints , for example: war is natural and inevitable and therefore (even some feminists agree that) women might as well join in.
I don't think men are all aggressive war-mongerers. Some men have been very supportive of feminism (I love George ORwell- so wise and ahead of his time). But destabilizing patriarchy and doing away with the way that "male" traits and endeavours are glorified in our culture is complicated. The worst of male excesses unfortunately play a big part in most societies and I should imagine this is because the most aggressive and narcisstic males are the ones that wrest all the power from everyone else. So I'm really just talking about those men. Unfortunately the power in society is unnaturally skewed in their favour.

IMO covering up is a post-9/11, Saudi influenced fad that will hopefully pass in time. Nothing more, nothing less.

But it has the unintended consequence of disrupting civil society in some instances, so women should consider very carefully whether they should take part in this.

'As we've discussed above it is not at all clear in Islam if women need to cover at all.'

Xenia you gave some views of a couple of female authors about this. they are not scholars.

look at the females who are attending madrassas, religious schools, who are studying the religion, look what are they wearing.

That is not what I said Xenia. I beleive that the more things I do that were asked from me from God (not a man) the greater my chances. You can laugh all you want and find me ridiculous I do not really care as I am big enough to realise it is my faith and not yours. That is is me out of feminist threads though because they are not there to make things better or find a way where people would actually try to understand each other.

It doesn't have to be 95% all the time but if things were equal then some of the time a Board might be 100% women or 60 or 40% and other times the other way about. I'm not just picking on the middle east. Africa is pretty sexist. Japan is appalling in some ways and look at how many baby girls are murdered every year in China and India just because they are female. Feminism has hardly started on this planet. Look at how many housewives on mumsnet put up with sexist men on thread after thread too.

Part of the answer is to educate girls and it's working here reasonably well.

if you think a lump of cloth is going to eradicate sin... well that would be a pretty silly God to think so. As we've discussed above it is not at all clear in Islam if women need to cover at all. In fact you might have it all the wrong way round and God made us as we are in beautiful nakedness and silly mankind got people covered up. if you do it late in life as plenty of people do in finding religion that's a bit bad too - have 50 years of bad deeds and then turn to God late on to ensure a place in the hereafter.

Anything that enables women to be heard is a good thing whether that's mumsnet or the fact they're a world leader.

On the point of stuff being male or not, that's when sexism gets rooted. The Victorians genuinely believed women didn't have the right minds and bodies to be doctors. They thought we would have the vapours, faint and just not be intellectually up to being surgeons although of course we were perfectly fit enough to clean up sick like Florence Nightingale.

When a meeting of Opec leaders is 95% female I might rest.

I dislike the burqa because, to my western eyes, it implies that it is fine for women to be invisible and voiceless ? to be socially negated.

However, western society grants women freedoms, and I use that word purposefully, that are unimaginable in places where the burqa is prevalent.

So, on that basis, I disagree that it should be banned or restricted in the West. Women should be granted the freedom to wear whatever they want. I won?t deny that freedom to imprison yourself. But I can tell you that I bloody well disapprove of it.

OMG that was a bit long!

"This fundamental issue that men might be wrong I don't like." I agree with you Xenia. When I said "Especially if you think that what the men are doing is wrong" I was refering to Les Chiennes de garde thought process: men should not treat women the way they do let's just do like them and treat them badly n return. I think the end result is that men , whatever they do cannot be right. If they have the macho(wolf whistle) behaviour they are wrong and if they are gentlemen(keep a door open for a woman) they are wrong too.

The only way for things to change is respect and discussion, and trying to understand what makes one tick.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a woman who works the same job as a man should have equal salary and opportunities to further their career. But I do not want to do things because someone thinks I m worthless if I don't. I wish to stay at home and look after my children for the time being because I feel it is my responsability to do so and I happen to like it as well. I just read the other thread Riven invited me too and there are things that to me are not right to me. A poster who said that she works with her Dh because it is her responsability fair enough, but who looks after the Dcs while this happens? A chilminder, a nursery nurse... someone who thinks looking after children is a job in any case. It means to me that if a woman/man looks after someone else's children it is "work" but if you decide to look for free after your own dcs, teach them, nurture them it becomes an antifeminist way of life. Why?

Now I am going to go back to the covering issue a bit . This thread had me thinking long and hard. I started wearing a headscarf 6 month ago. I met DH 13 years ago and we have been married for 12 1/2 years. Do you not think that if he had coherced(sp?) me into it it would have taken me 12 years to get the message?

What happened is that on my last birthday, like most people, I felt the fact that I am not getting any younger. One day I will die and according to my belief, I will then be questionned by my Creator about what I have done in my life to deserve rewards in the Hereafter. Now I do know that wearing a scarf wil not guaranty my place in paradise, but it might "erase" a few of my bad deeds and facilitate things for me. If anything, wearing a headscarf was the most ultimatly selfish decision I made in my life because I took into account myself and myself only.

So When I walk in the street and sometimes I sense people thinking "that poor oppressed woman" with a look of pity, they could not be more wrong. I am not in the least oppressed. I do now with my headscarf the very same things I used to do when I was not wearing one six month ago, only with more confidence. How can that be a bad thing?

Having people believing that I was pushed/forced into it really says more about them than it does about my condition as a woman.