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Original poster

So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

557 replies

Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 20:23

I read that in Belgium there is a draft bill to ban burkas and also the niqab.

As they put it " There is nothing in Islam or the Koran about the burka. It has become an institution of intimidation and is a sign of submission of women. A civilized society cannot accept the imprisonment of women."

They then talk of "matters of public safety" - is that implying that if you wear a burka is it therefore likely you might have it stuffed with explosives? Or if you cover your face, then there are security issues connected with that?

I have to admit I am very ignorant about all this. DO women only wear this clothing because they are opressed? Do they choose to? What happens if it is banned? Are women freed, or will they end up forbidden from leaving the house?

I am very interested to learn and understand more about this.

OP posts:
Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 21:29

Me wearing a push up bra probably has more "safety issues" than your average burka wearer. Be afraid, be very afraid....

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Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 21:28

I do agree though about the general hysteria, otherwise why would the Belgium govt mention "public safety" as one of the reasons why burqas should be banned.....

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Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 21:26

Is it REALLY that though toolly?

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toolly · 09/04/2010 21:25

It's in part a political decision to wear a burka. It's a metaphorical 'up yours' to the moral panic and general hysteria that is going on since 9/11.
It's mixture of defiance, orthodoxy, and assertion of identity in this new bad mad world!

BelleDameSansMerci · 09/04/2010 21:23

Can you really imagine "deferring" to your DH? Compromising perhaps but deferring?

Molesworth · 09/04/2010 21:22

Meant to add that the woman in the documentary did not come from a family where the niqab was worn. She said that she sprung the decision on her husband - they were going out somewhere or other and when he saw her in the niqab he said "You're not going out in that are you?"

The other thing she said was that when her parents had come to France, they had made a big effort to 'integrate', and she felt that the children of that generation were resentful about the way their parents had repudiated their cultural/religious identity in order to 'integrate' and yet had been treated like crap by the state and the French people, therefore some of the younger generation born in France are reclaiming symbols of muslim identity like the niqab to make a political statement.

southeastastra · 09/04/2010 21:20

argh the whole thing does my head in

of course it isn't right to be restricted on how to react by clothing

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 21:19

Maybe I should have posted under Religion, but that wasn't really my point. I did see a thread the other day where a poster was concerned that her dh's insistance on Koran study after school was too much for her small ds. The other posters' views pretty much seemed to say that obviously the boy's religious education was very important so therefore she should defer to her dh on this point. I was a bit but I know nothing so would not dream of commenting.

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BelleDameSansMerci · 09/04/2010 21:18

I think everyone should have the freedom to wear what they want to wear too. I think banning the burkha is wrong because I think women should be able to choose but what if they do choose to wear the burkha? And back round the loop we go...

All day - literally, all day on this stuff! Not just on this argument but so many similar. Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Tortington · 09/04/2010 21:18

i really want to be liberal and say it's free choice. however to what end that choice is actually free i am sceptical.

i have read islamic forums - usually when researching something said on here

Wanderingsheep · 09/04/2010 21:13

What TheCrackFox said!

I'm partially deaf and find it really difficult to hear someone if their mouth is covered as I lipread quite a lot.

However, I believe that someone should have the freedom to wear what they want to wear.

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 21:11

Well that is exactly what i wonder....

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BelleDameSansMerci · 09/04/2010 21:07

Ah but could she tell her husband to shut the feck up? I think that's the point really. It's unlikely, isn't it?

Molesworth · 09/04/2010 21:06

Portoeufino, weirdly I had that facetious thought about dungarees too

Obviously I do understand the difference really (she hastened to add )

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 21:05

Conditioning and culture must have a lot to do with it. Does it mean that someone who wears a burka is therefore also oppressed at home though? If it is about modesty in public....when home with the family could that same woman wear jeans, cook fish fingers and tell her dh to shut the feck up, or is it implied that she is somehow "lesser"?

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BelleDameSansMerci · 09/04/2010 21:04

Bloody hell - I spent all day working on an OU assignment about cultural exemption and the rights to autonomy and discussed this very topic...

One could argue that the woman choosing to wear the burkha is only choosing it because she has been brought up to see her body as something that should be covered rather than making an autonomous choice. Her views and choices have been moulded by her culture as much as ours have although, obviously, in many countries it's not a matter of choice.

Molesworth · 09/04/2010 21:03

dittany, yes, when I was listening to this programme it did remind me of some of the arguments about feminism and 'choice' that have been put forward elsewhere on mumsnet recently!

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 21:02

Sorry my last post sounds even more ignorant and twee.

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CarmenSanDiego · 09/04/2010 20:59

What do you do if you have a woman who says she chooses to wear the burkha?

It seems awfully patronising to say she only thinks that because she's conditioned into that way of thinking. Although I fear it may be true.

Molesworth · 09/04/2010 20:59

Totally agree purits. I'm certainly not saying women should cover themselves to escape from objectification (), just reporting how this young woman justified her decision to wear the niqab, how for her it is a statement to the world that she will not be made an object.

Original poster
Portoeufino · 09/04/2010 20:58

Molesworth, so does that make a niqab kind of a muslim version of dungarees? Sorry if that sounds facetious!

Brussels is obviously very multi-cultural - a huge percentage of the occupants originate from somewhere else. At dd's school once you had a take a "local" bread or cake etc. The variety was enormous and I love it that dd will grow up with a much more cosmopolitan view of the world than I did in 1970s southern England.

I don't see many burkas or niqabs out and about. Plenty of very attractive and stylish Muslim women. They certainly don't look too oppressed to me. And I love that they tuck their mobile phone into their headscarf when they are chatting on the tram.

OP posts:
dittany · 09/04/2010 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

moondog · 09/04/2010 20:56

I think the way forward is to assume bored indifference to the whole silly affair.Attention seekers, all of them.

Cover your face.
Don't cover your face
Cover your nose
Cover your face when it suits you
Lop off your ears and neigh like a donkey.

Who cares?

wukter · 09/04/2010 20:56

Can you sort out the male gaze though, purits?
It's biology to look. Morality and society prevent it going further. It's more than a short step, IMVHO, it's a different realm.

wukter · 09/04/2010 20:53

Sorry Crackfox didn't mean to, I actually think that argument makes a lot of sense.
I know nothing about Straw - not in the UK.

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