So banning the Burka - freeing women from opression or taking away free choice...?

umayma
"it wouldn't be practical for men to wear burqa, they are out at work, the majority of muslim women aren't and women in islam do not have to work."
"i'm saying we don't have to go out all day to work to provide for our families, that is mens responsibility"

This offends every bone in my feminist body and I am mortified that muslim women accept this tosh.

I dislike religion. All of them, be it Islam, Christianity, Judasim the lot. I don't differentiate. Personnally I fail to see the validity of any standpoint other than Athiesm in the modern world, seriously.

However there is no way I'd support a "ban the burqa" campaign. It is wrong on many levels.

Firstly, any such campaign is very likely to be hijacked by the far right/BNP/nasty pillocks in general. It may even encourage thugs to harrass muslim women for wearing a head scarf etc (sorry I don't know all of the correct terms for the various garments).

Secondly, I believe very, very strongly in freedom. The freedoms of choice, speach and conscience more specifically. It was Elizabeth I who said that she had no desire to make windows into men's souls (or was it hearts?) anyway, you get the idea. Just because I do not agree with burqa - and I most certainly do not support the reasoning behind it - it is none of my business what another women wears. Nor is it any business of the state. THAT is true oppression.

There is a rather dictatorial vein in this thread. We cannot wear high heels and mini skirts as this is oppresive nor can we wear muslim dress for the same reason. Even if a woman says that she has chosen to dress in these ways, she is told that it cannot be a "real" choice as she has clearly been culturaly conditioned to choose that way and does not know her own mind.

I have not read such truly patronising drivel in a very long time.

In other words, there is only one "true" choice we can make - that of western, conservative dress. No other choice is valid.

BDSM women wear hijab in front of men who arent 'mahram' that is men who aren't close family members, people related so close that you cant marry them.

The list is your bro/father/uncles/fil/son

So it isnt really, men they couldnt have sex with but 'family' but obv would be confusing to just say family as there are within an extended family there are people who you do cover from cousins etc.

I agree with you Riven... I think we all see the symbols of our own or chosen cultures with slightly different eyes. The problem with the Burkha for those of us who champion the feminine cause is that it does seem to symbolise all the things that we've spent the last hundred or so years fighting against (if one assumes that the struggle for equality started with suffragettes which it didn't but...).

I think the point about the different perception in the UK vs Afghanistan is a really good one and I wish I'd heard that quote when I was struggling through my assignment yesterday.

I think banning any item of clothing is pointless and I think it's as bad to ban the Burkha in the west as it is for the Afghans to insist that I wear one.

Like Dittany said though, this is low on the list of things that need addressing. I think it distracts from the real issues of inequality that are glossed over in the name of diplomacy (see Afghans "democratic" leader whose wife "doesn't really want to go out anyway").

OK, couple of thoughts/questions... All IMHO, of course:

Firstly, what it says in the Koran is not the issue it's the interpretation and application of those words in many societies that causes the issues. So, using the wording to support an argument for the treatment of women in those regions is misleading.

Secondly, if a woman should be covered when she is with any man who could marry her then why does she still need to cover after being married? If she's already married then she can't be married. I assume, that in fact, the wording means any man who could have sex with her? But, given that we were discussing the semantics around the wording this point also does not make sense.

Thirdly, anyone who thinks that all religions (including Christianity) did not arise with a tradition of owning women is wearing blinkers. The issue of ownership and control of women is at the heart of so many cultures and is hardly confined to the Middle East.

Have a look at this and be horrified at the Peruvian law which states that if a woman is gang raped but only one of the perpetrators offers to marry her then they're all off the hook. This article did generate a lot of rebuttals, by the way, but the facts in it stand.

Again, agree with dittany...

it's 2.30 am for me so goodnight all...

But the fact remains that thousands of very young girls are married off to older men, who then are supposed to wait for them to reach puberty before having sex with them. Yeah, right, I'm sure they all do.

The, those 10 year olds in a great majority of cases have not chosen their husband, their parents did. So a child is married off (against her will, as obviously she cannot consent at this age)to some guy she will have to have sex with and keep the house for him for the rest of her life. Oh, and he's got a right to divorce her, while she, usually does not, and he gets the custody of children after they have reached certain age.

Yup,equality.

that is the whole point.

Islam doesn't encourage marriage to girls who have just reached puberty

it has set the MINIMUM age to puberty. so maybe you want Qur'an changed to minimum age 16.

dont know about Yemen but statistics aren't that pretty over here are they

are there many 15 r old virgins about these days, i doubt it very much

Sorry:

informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01443619750113861 proper link

Isn't it a quater of all girls in Yemen who get married before 15? Yep.

I think statistics are not very pretty.

Currently the average age to begin menstruating is 15.1 in Saudi Arabia (according to this [[http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01443619750113861 study) btw

Agree with Dittany.

Frankly, I cannot understand how you can fail to see that she's right.

Again, this is not against Islam as a whole, but there are parts to it that would be best forgotten (as is the case with Christianity- but they seem to have moved on a bit).

what a load of rubbish you're spouting off. so all the muslims in the world support child rape

just because A VERY FEW girls get MARRIED and live with their HUSBAND when they have reached puberty.

i'm going to sleep! don't even know why i'm bothering with time wasters