How is it possible to be a feminist and support the sex industry?

Obviously just as there is no one typical sex worker, there is no one typical client.

The issue is whether the industry supports the subordination of women. I think it does, by perpetuating the myth of continuous unthinking female sexual availability (hence my fuckhole comment, which is a slightly more brutal term than the accepted 'fucktoy'), and by condoning practices of terrible abuse.

I'm just reading The Equality Myth for the book club in this topic which is written by a fairly level headed academic feminist. The chapter on prostitution made me cry for the women she interviewed and what they endured. 68% of prostitutes have PTSD which is comparable to rates of torture victims. There is a massive physical and emotional price to pay for having sex you don't really want to have.

Not all women in the sex industey are abused victims.

Not all men who use them are vile.

But the whole relationship informs wider society's view of women and perpetuates misogyny.
"
"""who do you thinkn that the majority of women in the sex industry are down trodden victims how did you come to this conclusion?""

The gospels of infinite wisdom that are the British tabloids and/or alternatively Julie Bindel, Shelia Jeffreys etc. "

Whereas your views are drwn from those pillars of intellectual debate, The Sun, Nuts and Fiesta?

I agree with SolidGoldBrass, unlike frankfrankly I don't agree that "we're helping disabled people' line is quite offensive". I think there is an element of truth in it. If you have ever seen the film 'Personal Services' about Cynthia Payne's life story, you will see that some of her customers were men in wheelchairs who did not have any other sexual relationships. I also agree with SolidGoldBrass that the majority of Cynthia Payne's customers did treat her with respect.

Seeker,
"...But the vast majority are. "
On what statistics do you base this on?
Has anyone done a survey of the sex workers to get an idea of what the story is?

The Myth of the Happy Hooker is a story, nothing more and I really don't think ALL men are running around convinced that all working girls are happy. This is a gross sweeping generalization of men. Is that fair? Just as assuming that all women in prostitution are there against their wills.

Unless we start castrating baby boys at birth, so they grow up to be eunuchs, me will be driven to seek sexual encounter outside of their primary relationships.

Men have and will always pay for sex, some will be direct as the exchange of money for a guaranteed sexual favor or more indirectly in the form of a new patio or car for the wife, or a diamond necklace for the GF. Should we criminalize these encounters as well?

I think what gets under the skin of most women when the subject of prostitution and such comes under discussion, is not so much the that the man is going outside the relationship and engaging in sexual acts with another woman or man. But I think the deep seated fear is the loss of the resource, the money spent.
My humble opinion.

"unless you know prostitutes and have spoken to them it may seem that some have a very unbalanced view"
I think that listening to people who are prostitutes is important. But listening to just one or two people when there are thousands is not a balanced view.

Of course an escort can earn £1000/night, but the vast majority don't. And I expect that outside London it is more difficult.

And I find the 'we're helping disabled people' line quite offensive. It implies that no right-minded person would want a sexual relationship with someone with a disability and so they need to pay for it.

In answer to the op, I think you can be a feminist and support prostitution, but it is a hugely divisive issue which has split feminist debate in half.

ooops ...sorry seeker for that I am sorry and I sould have made that clear in my earlier posting that it wasnt you that said that
x
not sure if the comments made by another poster at the former end of the thread has been deleted and I really cannot be bothered to scroll through it all again as it will really give me a bit of a headf@&k

Actually, not all the men who pay for sex are vile scum who think women are objects to be abused, either. I have several acquaintances who have visited pro-dommes (ie paid for a BDSM session during which it's the customer who gets tied up and whipped) and they speak of the women with respect. Also the lonely older widower or the man with physical disablities of some kind is grateful, not hostile, to the women he pays.
A man who thinks women are less than human doesn't necessarily pay for sex, I've encountered horribly misogynist men who regard the sex industry with hatred and contempt, a contempt which extends to the customer as much as to the sex worker. These are the men whose mindset is that they have 'never had to pay for it' but they are quite OK with using pressure or indeed a degree of force to get sex from a (non-sex-industry) woman.
Also, we pay people to provide personal services to us in a variety of ways which includes them treating us as though they like and care about us when they may not do, may be having a lousy day for other reasons, we may be rude or smelly or impatient: it's OK to pay for a service that you want done expertly, or in an unusual way, or that you just don't want to or can't do for yourself/

Rottygirl - I came across a lot of sex workers in a previous incarnation.

Please be careful how you conflate replies by the way - you have made it look as if I used the term 'fuckhole" and "condemned" prostitutes - neither of which I did or would.

who do you thinkn that the majority of women in the sex industry are down trodden victims how did you come to this conclusion?
who have you spoken to or is it just the written word that have let you come to this conclusion?
I am interested to know
unless you know prostitutes and have spoken to them it may seem that some have a very unbalanced view
the 'happy hooker' does exist and so does the unhappy one , and from what i have read the ladies who have written on here seem happy in their life choices
so why call them fuckholes (nice!.. shows good manners there!!)
they are running a business like a lot of women including myself , I have a few women who visit me in my line of work who are involved in the sex industry, they are just like any other woman ,
but to some they are the scum of society...but I would much rather converse with some of the prostitues on here than others that have condemmed them

I remain hard-line. I do not think for one minute that all women working in the sex industry are down-trodden victims. But the vast majority are.

And the existence of the industry perpetuates the inherently misogynist mind-set that prevails in our society. The myth of the 'Happy Hooker" is particularly insidious because it enables men to believe that all sex-workers and, by extension, all women, are happy to be available for sex at all times, and that there is something wrong with women that aren't.

But I am very old, and cut my feminist teeth on Greer, French and Dworkin.

Oh, bugger - another fascinating thread I've only come across a million posts in. Please keep posting MissHoneyMoon and Mandamumu - I'm interested in what you have to say and, fwiw, find I'm in general agreement with SolidGoldBrass' sentiments on the subject.

BTW, may I beg your indulgence and with the greatest respect to all, please may we keep things civil? This is such an important subject and of course, an emotive one, with very strong views on both (many) sides. None of us are doing the subject (and consequently those affected and involved therein) any service by wasting column inches (and reading time) on throwing insults at each other (though some are v. funny - reespect).

Forgive my 'late entry' post, especially as I've contributed nothing to it so far, but you've all posted some interesting and thought provoking opinions, it'd be a shame to mar the debate with ill-humour.

aren't the women vulnerable to criminal gangs demanding protection money etc.? Or does that not happen?

Miss, you didn't say "English wasn't your first language". I could have believed it was your second. YOu said it was your fourth language. I presume you said that to show what an educated prostitute you are, who has nevertheless chosen prostitution.

Look, the reason so few women speak out against prostitution is because they are immediately accused of having a strange, Victorian puritanical view of sex. That is the first accusation. THat is what stopped me personally believing that prostitution was wrong for a long time. The same idea could be said about women who oppose the beauty industry: only women who are not beautiful want to stamp out something that glorifies beauty. Well, both those views are very masculine views and that is seeing the world through male eyes. Women in general are not jealous of other women. Women in general do not have puritanical issues about sex: that is the mother/whore complex created by men, isn't it? So if a woman doesn't agree with prostitution on principle, on the principle that its not good for the buyer or the seller or for society she is deemed as being sexually oppressed . It makes no sense.

WHen I was a student, various circumstances that I don't want to go into now built up and led me to consider the sex industry. Well, stripping to be exact, but its a slippery slope and all that. I didn't in the end, but it was a very fine line.
Looking back I am horrified at my state of mind at the time, at how vulnerable I was in so many different ways and just how young I was. This is anecdotal, but I can very easily see how an educated woman can enter the sex industry. It doesn't make it a choice though. SO many more factors are involved than whether the women herself makes a decision to become a prostitute or whether she is sold. The industry is sick.

And why is no-one talking about the men who deem it okay to pay to use another human being's body??!!??

Mmmmh, madwomanintheattic (love the name btw lol) I have to confess I was a little facetious when I suggested that dittany should go to SAAFE and preach her principles to them.

Seriously, I would really hope that you are met with courtesy and be welcome on SAAFE. I would recommend reading the advice section first before diving in with questions. I do admit that at times reception can be frosty if people come and post about research projects with stereotypical pre-formed attitudes. In the defence of members there, they get numerous often exploitative media requests and can feel a bit defensive about being studied like bugs under the microscope. The analogy does really ring true.

All I can say I would be happy to try and answer any questions you have as I appreciate any genuine interest for fostering some understanding.

i've had a look at saafe. (i hadn't realised it was open forum tbh).

do you think that non-wg would actually be welcomed misshm? i'm just curious - have been burned a little on a tg forum due to the 'bugs under a microscope' analogy - ie tg and admirers allowed and welcomed, but not just interested people attempting to make up their minds about a given issue (tg/ prostitution etc). i tend to find that social researchers are particularly unwelcome unless they can demonstrate their credentials.

that said, i do understand the 'not wanting to put your head above the parapet' mentality - there are obviously deep and valid reasons why certain communities choose to remain hidden. i'm just not so much in favour of hiding - everyone's 'reality' is different and i wonder if by 'hiding' you are helping to perpetuate some of the alternative views? (not trying to accuse - genuinely curious)

I think to answer the question properly, we first need to agree on the definition of feminist.

Seeker: Yes it is. Even Dittany says (further up the thread) that while she would think a feminist who supports the sex industry is wrong to do so, it wouldn't make such a person not a feminist.
And I am a feminist who does support many aspects of the sex industry (but not, obviously, the abuse and exploitation of those forced to participate in it against their wishes). I don't need your (or anyone else's) permission to be or define myself as a feminist.

To answer the OP's question - it isn't.

I agree with what MissHoneyMoon has said. I have googled London escort sites and her prices are higher than some, but are not out of the bounds.

Overnight bookings seldom consist of marathon bonking sessions. Usually, a booking starts around 8pm and includes a meal, some show, theatre etc (usually I pray it isn?t a musical as although I am happy to have sex for money, I draw the line at any Andrew Lloyd Webber atrocity!) And since you tend to spend around 14 to 16 hours with the person that equates to a ?relative? low hourly rate for sex work. As it goes £1,000 is a pretty average overnight rate for Central London. My rate is actually in the (upper) middle price segment. I don?t get that many overnight bookings but 2 to 4 hour bookings tend to be more frequent. Often the actual sex does not clock up that much time. Few men match my stamina.

I would suggest for those who cannot reconcile the idea of independent escorts earning a decent wage and being happy to pursue this kind of work to simply google some independent escorts in their area. You will realise there are thousands who form a major and fairly large segment of the sex industry and who are not the victims people want to continue to portray them as. Check out industry sites like SAAFE etc. Better still join up and repeat some of the statements voiced here ? I am sure Amy and the others will love to hear especially from Litany... lol