How is it possible to be a feminist and support the sex industry?

"to you there is a huge and insurmountable difference between touching the human body for general therapeutic reasons and touching the human body for sexual reasons. This is not the same for everyone."

SGB - there is, I am happy to admit that. It may not be the same for everyone, but I think that most people would recognise the difference, hence it is socially and culturally a completely different issue to see, say, a physio compared to a prostitute.

MissHM - I am glad that you feel you can come on here and share your experience. I think your voice is a valuable one in this debate. However, I do not think that your views are necessarily representative and it is just one (very privileged) perspective. I think that the research is just as important as it gives voice to other prostitutes, which I'm sure you'd want to hear too. I would be interested in seeing the pie chart you refer to. Is it online? As for being mentally and emotionally mature enough, I think that is an unnecessary and demeaning remark which doesn't help the discussion.

BTW I think your knee jerk reaction about helping a 20yr old into the industry was probably a good one.

Claig ? I have been on a number of industry boards for a few years with thousands of posts under my suspender belt. Those of us working here in the UK ? do not use the word ?John? in any of the millions of posts I have read. Some of the posts/forums can be read openly ? you can easily check this. Some people who are not actually prostitutes might use the term and/or publishers might edit it as a catchy phrase. I made this point to address both Manda and I being ridiculed about our choice of words.

Anyway, I actually do agree that the discussion might be far more helpful if semantics are put aside for a moment. Despite some hundreds of posts on this thread ? hopefully there is a consensus that exploitation exists and some solution should be found. Sadly, as so often so energy and time is diverted to protecting the rights of voluntary workers against a complete ban on legal sex work. It would be helpful to suspend the constant undermining of a legal and large group of sex workers to focus on the underlying causes of those that are actually in trouble. Part of that would be to acknowledge that many sex workers have made a clear and informed choice to enter the profession. If anything we are keen to eradicate rogue elements of our trade. An analogy would be perhaps let?s say the building trade ? I am trying to say rather than alienate all contractors in order to drive out illegal labour especially by those exploited by gangs that smuggled them into the UK. Stop telling the builders they are all exploited by capitalists. Yes a very simplistic comparison I admit ? I just want to take the moralistic stance towards sex work out of the equation. Respect that many sex workers are happy to have sex with clients. Don?t stigmatise the actual work. Instead focus on those forced to do the job and who have not been allowed to make a choice.

Then also differentiate the subtle nuances of sex workers that have entered the profession voluntarily but due to some desperation, debts or due to some economic flight from an area with little employment opportunities. But still again weigh up the motives. I have met some women from both Eastern European countries or Asia who have voluntary chosen to prostitute themselves. If they had a choice to earn lump sums quickly in another way they would be keen to do so. They often have some target/goal such as for example raising funds to buy a property or business back home. Many work solidly for a few months or couple of years. They might very well suffer from some sort of burnout. It isn?t the sex but it is mentally and physically tiring to meet hundreds of men. But remember the effects of that work stem from a deliberate decision to see as many clients as possible in a short period. Any high intensity mentally demanding job probably would result in a similar toll on mind and body. Ladies who see escorting as a long term profession tend to pace themselves to allow for their bodies and mind to rest. I do not accept all booking requests because I avoid unsuitable clients and also to keep my mental and physical health. The key here is that a voluntary sex worker will have the opportunity to vet their customers and also pace themselves.

Honestly, I have no ready-made solution for those exploited and for those trying to raise capital by using high volume work short term. Perhaps especially some forms of more flexible and ethical investment could be an answer. Aside from escorting I am going back to arts/design roots ? I am currently exploring global coop schemes to for example produce clothing. I have seen some Latin American scheme where for example street prostitutes on pretty poor incomes had a chance to acquire fashion skills and produced a fashion range. I don?t want to enter some debate how stereotypical it is to opt for training that taught how to sew, tailor etc. But that is what those ladies felt passionate about. I also do not want to assume that every woman wants to quit prostitution ? I am however interested in schemes that allow an alternative to prostitution out of desperate poverty.

Again I am aware and sorry I wrote another novel ? laugh if you like and label it as boring. I feel passionate about the subject and am genuinely keen to tackle exploitation. But I just feel more sensitivity and respect needs to be shown. First of all do not assume that everyone actually has a problem with sex work ? give non-judgmental support.

Madwoman: interesting area of discussion. I have noticed that some people, particularly men, do think of women as objects and property in a way that is bad for women - but this is not the fault of the sex industry. Men think that a woman who is not wearing some kind of badge of ownership is available to them ie that she has no say in the matter. This is, again, down to superstition and the patriarchal culture which treats women as breeding stock.
I do remember being furiously annoyed with an otherwise nice man I was having a bit of a fling with, who kept harping on about how he 'couldn't believe someone hadn't snapped me up long before now.' He couldn't seem to understand that it was my choice to stay single (and couldn't, in fact, quite see the compliment it was to him that I was actually dating him when I hadn't dated anyone for years).

I don't understand the legalities of it. But presumably most of the young prostitutes do not own the flats in Central London out of which they are working. There are often reports in the papers of the people who own these flats, bigtime madams or pimps, being busted for living off immoral earnings. Isn't there some sort of blurring of the criminal and legal in how the business is run out of these flats?

i'm having trouble finding tlc, but no matter - am familiar with the issue and am aware of policies such as that in place at treloar, where disabled teenagers can be supported (physically/ emotionally) to explore in consensual relationships.

as a former academic misshm, do you not wish that the 'considerable chunk' of 'content sex workers' were more visible? from your point of view, is the issue solely one of misrepresentation? or do you see wider ramifications of the availability of this service for women not in the industry?

having spent a fair amount of my working life as a female in the military, (and a fair chunk of it running all-male teams carrying out tasks in various places around the globe), i've seen a fair amount of trade. at the point the guys start paying, i have always taken my leave. as institutionalised chaps, my boys (note motherly phraseology lol) seemed to be able to understand that some women are available for sex (paid for or not), and others aren't. and it had no noticeable ramifications for my authority at work.

but clearly soldiers/ sailors (who i use as an example of a fairly recogniseable group of service users in particular locations) aren't always able to make this distinction (whether somewhere in theatre in the desert, or on the strip in limassol). i am concerned about causation (and also, if i'm honest, complicity).

In answer to references to crime and intimidation etc and other criminal elements. I daresay that ?protection money? might be demanded from some parlours or other illegally operating businesses. The same probably happens in other industries. Independent escorts operate legally hence there is far less room for extortion or blackmail etc. I have not encountered any criminal element in my life and find the insinuation a little tiresome and simplistic. I would know as much about gangs threatening prostitutes as anyone else relying on media headlines. The majority of escorts have no ?pimps? ? they are self employed and operate a legal business. Any attempts of trying to control a prostitute so while our occupation is legal gives us at least the possibility to contact the police and take steps to protect ourselves.

If you looked at the prostitution industry as a pie chart (for those that love statistics) voluntary sex workers be it independent escorts, agency ladies or parlour workers form the vast majority. The effects and reality of street work are simply different to the reality of most of our working life. Same goes for sex migrant workers. There are underlying issues of education, economic disadvantages, education etc . Simply suggesting that prostitution has caused the hardship for these women does not address the underlying problems. Doubt that most of my fellow prostitutes deny the sad reality of exploitation that does go on in the sex industry as does it in overall society. We just refute the sweeping statement that we are all forced, exploited and victimised. Our responsibility individually is not higher so than any other fellow global citizen!

However, like many of my colleagues I would like the choice of how I work to remain mine. Rather than spending valuable resources on endless research studies that focus on prostitutes that are victims of society long before ending up in this industry the money should actually be spent on improving access to drug treatment, education, housing, childcare and actually providing some alternatives to earn cash. When laws are proposed instead of listening merely to some strange alliance of religious, patriarchal and feminist pressure groups, we the sex workers like an equal input. It would also be useful to actually realise that the exploitative and unsavoury elements of prostitution are already covered by UK laws. Precious funds should not be diverted but actually address the criminal elements.

I don?t find the discussion amusing ? I am sick and tired of some of the tunnel vision people outside of the industry have who assume that a huge majority of sex workers are exploited or do this job involuntarily. Given that there is a large community of us that meet both online and in real life, I insist that we are a real and sizable force to be reckoned with. I am in close contact to ladies that might charge double, treble or more than I do and those that charge a lot less. We actually respect each other and have no snobbery about our work. My rates do not exclude me from the vast majority of my colleagues ? in fact, if you consider London wages and cost of living etc ? you will find my rates are fairly similar to those across the UK of other sex workers. But I do think that quite a few posters here simply cannot reconcile the idea of sex work per se based on personal attitudes to sex. I totally respect that as I was not ready nor would have considered it myself until I felt mentally and emotionally mature enough. One of the ladies I mentor is now 20 ? I had a knee jerk reaction about such a young age initially but I respect her motives and maturity to make such a decision.

women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article3539987.ece

"Another irony is that Manda and me are chastised for the language we use yet some posters use ridiculous phrases such as ?Johns? etc which none of us use. Mock us belittle us but at least accept that each group will have his own terminology. Using the word ?John? is stupid and ridiculous ? no person in the UK speaks like some cheap US drama."

I am not sure that the word 'John' is such a stupid and ridiculous word and is not sometimes used in the UK. It looks like it is sometimes used outside of the boudoir.

In the Times newspaper, an English punter says "First, let me explode some myths about Johns"
women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article3539987.ece

and in a UK left-wing political blog the term is also used
liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/21/british-blowjobs-for-british-hookers/

MissHM if you think that your unique and subjective account of escorting is a more accurate description of prostitution than several research studies there's not much we can say to you about the horrors those women suffered.

But at least you find the discussion amusing lol.

I can't stand this thread anymore. It's not often I get so angry about another human being. Hiding the thread now.

I responded to those that mocked and belittled me and used derogatory language. I have used a lot of restraint given some of the posts. I reserve the right to participate in this debate as a feminist. I insist that my occupation does not exclude me.

I won?t play the role of the poor victim nor blindly accept ignorance and doctrine.

Besides I got quite a good reception from quite a number of posters whom I am grateful to. Luckily, not everyone is totally blinkered

bookmark (I get the feeling this one will still be rolling tomorrow!)

Frankfrankly: to you there is a huge and insurmountable difference between touching the human body for general therapeutic reasons and touching the human body for sexual reasons. This is not the same for everyone.
ONce again, I think the major problem with discussing the sex industry is that some people consider sex to be such a massive big deal when to others it's just another human activity, therefore doing it for money is no different to cooking for money, scrubbing floors for money, singing for money or being punched in the face for money.

Besides the irony of the feminist stormtroopers telling us that prostitution damages, degrades and objectifies women and then actually using derogatory language to label those of us that proudly admit of being prostitutes as fuck objects, it is also interesting that the same people refuse to enter a fair and open debate. If asked to actually step away from quoting blogs, papers and other third hand info and perhaps trying to listen to those actually involved in the work ? they adopt the same patronising stance of talking down and over us silly little women than the autocratic patriarchs they so revile. Bindel keeps doing that too lol

Another irony is that Manda and me are chastised for the language we use yet some posters use ridiculous phrases such as ?Johns? etc which none of us use. Mock us belittle us but at least accept that each group will have his own terminology. Using the word ?John? is stupid and ridiculous ? no person in the UK speaks like some cheap US drama.

Unlike the totalitarian defenders of the official feminist party line, I support TLC, a board that attracts both genders . The only offensive thing is to dismiss the forum and its members. Disabled just as abled bodied clients are not abusers. I suggested to go TLC and SAAFE and try to get a broader view. I am also repeating that content sex workers are not a small minority group but represent a considerable chunk of this industry. I cannot speak for the disenfranchised and less lucky prostitutes, then again nor can anyone else here. These women probably have less incentive or even access to come on this forum.

Some people keep mentioning the money ? eerrr well that is normally a large incentive for working. I have worked out of love in academia and arts/crafts jobs for crap pay but also in the free industry. Before becoming an escort, I actually earned the same as a director of a media company. The only difference was that I was overtired, stressed and getting iller by the day. I loved my last job but no longer had time for my friends and family. Now I am healthy, relaxed, well rested and take long breaks in between. I took stock of my life and found a new happier balance of work and free time. Although a lot of posters here refuse to believe so ? I am far from being a small isolated case. I know a few hundred ladies who I communicate with who chose this work for similar motives.

Anyway, it seems now obvious that some feminists are more equal than others... lol

sorry the 2nd quote should read "the age of 18 or 21" and the p.55 refers to the page in the home office report, not a page of the references. sorry!

I can't go back through it all right now, but while I'm not sure that MandaMM has said she considers herself to be a feminist, MissHM definitely did.

IMHO it'd be good if we didn't get too hung up on phraseology, eg 'working girls' or (a lot further up) 'boudoir'. I don't work in sex work so therefore don't know what terminology is used / normal / unsurprising in that circle.

"The home office statistics that were quoted earlier; I think you'll find that the first figure (when seen in full) is that 75% of prostitutes UNDER 18 started as children."

Mandamumu, i'm sorry that's not correct. The 75% stat refers to adult women involved in prostitution who entered it as children/young people. This 2004 home office report says:

"Just over three quarters of the women (76%, 93/122) had first become involved in prostitution at the age of 21 or under." (p. 141) This is referring to the research they have done.

They also mention other research, saying: "The literature suggests that most of the women and men involved in prostitution probably entered prostitution as young
people, under the age of 18 or 2129 (Pearce and Roach, 1997; Melroseet al., 1999)" p.55

Well Mandamumu just as long as you feel 'welcomed' by the right 'people'.

I still think your profession is exploitative, damaging and demeaning. You still haven't said whether you consider yourself to be a feminist.

girls ?

you mean working girls ? Stop using ridiculous phraseology, for goodness's sake

this is an anonymous website...anyone who is too intimidated to post perhaps does not have a strong enough opinion ?

I think you'll find that many girls would have been put off by the initial "welcoming committee" and would not have "said their piece".

I didn't say that I hadn't said mine. That's just how you chose to read it.

who is stopping you from saying your piece?

your words appear on the site, just like everyone else's do

they will remain there, for posters and lurkers alike

what a strange concept...that you don't feel you have "said your piece"

I find it interesting that people can feel they have such an in depth knowledge of a subject just from reading a few papers. That's how it feels on the inside looking out...

The home office statistics that were quoted earlier; I think you'll find that the first figure (when seen in full) is that 75% of prostitutes UNDER 18 started as children. I find that a horrific figure and the levels of poverty/abuse that these children find themselves in needs to be sorted and fast, but that statistic is still very very different when seen in full, don't you think?

I make a habit of trying to get hold of the full report whenever I see figures like that bandied about. It makes enlightening reading. I would have a lot more respect for the anti prostitution lobby if they didn't continually put a "spin" on the facts.

I'm pleased to see that some of the people I expected to find here are now appearing. The people who are interested, who haven't completely closed their minds. The people I thought I would be popping in here to chat to. So far, the majority of posts in this thread have led me to feel that if I don't agree with the dittany line then I am not welcome. That is not the way forward, on her or in general. Everyone needs to get the chance to say their piece.