How is it possible to be a feminist and support the sex industry?

I agree with Molesworth, MHM. As she points out, you haven't done any research either. In fact, one could argue that you are more likely to be propagandising than the mainstream media is - because you have something personally invested, in terms of your own identity, in how the sex industry is perceived.

There is no logic in your idea that, because you do it willingly, someone else won't have to do it unwillingly. Sadly, there isn't a finite number of prostitutes required to satisfy demand - they can't think of you, and tick one off the list.

Just what I was going to say, Mandamumu. Surely MissHM is the research, as it were? She says very clearly above that she has "an active support group for ?colleagues? and [is] part of a mentoring scheme that pairs experienced ladies with newer escorts to give practical and emotional support." Ie networking and information gathering, which will give a wider view than purely her own.

@Molesworth Vulnerable and hidden to the outside world perhaps, but not to each other.

If a prostitute is not qualified to be a prostitute's voice, then who is?

Whilst I have absolutely no issue with the word prostitute, I would ask you to desist using the phrase "prostituted women". I find it incredibly offensive.

You will find that many organisations have been founded by an interested party rather than the people it is set up to help. I am sure that in most cases you would have no problem with that.

I know of her through a friend of a colleague - she was described to me as "well meaning but a bit thick" colleague was very 'surprised' at the lack of quality of the research.

I joined this debate because it seems a great opportunity to actually give an opinion on it from an insider point of view. I do not claim to speak for the whole of the industry. I do however have an active support group for ?colleagues? and am part of a mentoring scheme that pairs experienced ladies with newer escorts to give practical and emotional support.

And as great as the diversity of ladies working in the industry is ? so is the clientele. I abhor the kind of person that seeks to exploit a vulnerable person. These guys tend to treat WGs as the human equivalent of battery hens. But just like in many other industries there is a strata of different ladies, the ones with more education and access for example to the Internet and simply better organisational skills often do tend to have a better clientele and better income. That is similar to many other industries with sliding scales and not a judgement just stating the reality of many work places. I do however want to actually foster a bit better understanding of some of our customers. I really would like to dispel the myth of all being disrespecting saddos who ?violate? or objectify women. I see a lot of younger guys who are climbing up the corporate career ladder with little free time to meet and socialise with women. Often they are actually very attractive lovely men who actually do not want to ?use? women for a one night stand or mislead them but simply have no time to devote to a relationship. I also see a lot of guys who really do love their partners but live parallel and desperately isolated lives as they do not seem to be able to communicate their desires to each other any more. Not all guys are cheating lotharios ? in fact, at times if a little more warmth and simple respect would be given on both sides, I might have fewer clients. None of my clients would be able to enter my boudoir without total and utter hygiene. Trust me I would get a pressure washer out myself. So please before labelling all clients as unwashed gross men ? just remember many pay to not just get their jollies but in fact 80% of my customers are trying to give me a good time and treat me with kindness and respect.

sigh

Does it matter who founded it?

The IUSW does have members who are independent escorts and being a man who is a sexworker and also runs an escort agency (a very good one, I hear) does not preclude one from being a damn good person.

Yes dittany I do agree with decriminilisation of prostitutes and prosecution of pimps/punters who exploit them - that is much better than legalisation.

I did not know that about Lopes quite surprised. Thanks for that.

Dear Grandhighpoohba, I did not personally address you but merely spoke of journalists and/or politicians that actually do approach me and my ?colleagues? with such notions that I needed rescuing and being stopped from exploitation without affording me the simple respect of actually listening of what I have to say. Likewise it seems you have not really researched nor really have any clue about what I do as my profession ? you also appear not to have studied a lot of the contemporary or recent feminist works. And you have not been able it seems to actually comprehend what I actually said.

I am not responsible or in any form contribute to the suffering or exploitation of women forced into prostitution. If anything my free choice and actual availability could mean my service would in fact possibly mean someone else was not doing it involuntarily. Trafficking in this country actually covers a lot of industries, I did not say sexual slavery did not exist ? I however do state that figures that are bandied about are grossly misrepresented and instead of actually doing some research ? many journalists repeat those figures instead of actually checking them. As someone actually in the industry I have a fairly good understanding that the great majority of my colleagues are working out of their own free will.

I am as shocked and upset about women and men as well as children being abused and exploited. Sadly, few headlines are devoted to the thousands of faceless virtual slaves who form the massive underbelly of UK?s hospitality or tourism industry, not to mention thousands of trafficked agricultural ?migrant? workers picking fruit in Kent etc. However, their plight simply is not as salacious or has the same moral crusaders. Hence I am as implicated with my work choice with regards to victims of sexual slavery as anyone who eats in one of Europe?s thousands of restaurants, uses a hotel or indeed eats Tesco?s? or other supermarket strawberries of impacting on the lives of these trafficked slave workers.

And it would be good if people actually bothered to read what I took the trouble to write instead of jumping to conclusions and misquoting me. I do not suggest that anyone who disagreed with me has a troubled hetero sexual relationship ? however, if you read some feminist writings such as by Dworking et all they actually do!

OLKN, my point was that these women do not have nothing to do with exploitative sex, whilst they themselves may not be exploited, their choices make the situation worse for others. I only focused on them, because it was the area you raised for discussion.

I agree however, that far more of the blame lies with the men who pay for sex, and it is them that should be prosecuted.

Am off to bed, will be back tomorrow. Will be interesting to see where this discussion goes...

Oh, so now all independent escorts are at fault for not seeing the unsuitable clients because then these guys will rattle off down the road to a coerced lady...

Ok then, next time a man who strikes you as a bit dodgy chats you up, you must have sex with him. Just because you are assertive, that doesn't mean you should send him off to a less assertive girl..

While you're at it. Please ban all hetero relationships because some involve domestic violence.

"I suppose it boils down to whether or not you agree that the use of a person as a sexual object is intrinsically harmful..."

And I don't understand that one, either. I see it used again and again in feminist arguments about the sex trade generally - whether prostitutes/escorts or lapdancers, and it seems to be the bottom line for feminists that it is. But I simply cannot agree.

Can someone explain to me why it is considered degrading and so on? Surely some women get a buzz out of it?

Good evening MissHoneyMoon. Welcome to Mumsnet

Again, Misshoneymoon, am not suggesting that you are in need of rescue. Am suggesting that there are limits to self determination in a civilised, moral society, for anyone, be they male or female.

Given the great range of sex workers out there, what makes you feel that you are in a position to speak for sex workers as a whole? What insight does your experience of making a free choice to be well paid give you into the lives of other sex workers?

"BdJ and her like on the otherhand, do hold some of the blame for the exploitation of other women, and although I'm not convinced they should be prosecuted for it (how would you seperate them from those with no choice in the matter) I do think they are behaving immoraly,(sp)and not in a feminist manner."

I'm sorry, I really don't and can't understand this. Women who have nothing to do with exploitative sex, are to be blamed for it? How about leaving the blame with the nasty, unwashed, disrespectful men who exploit vulnerable women?

Glad to hear from someone who has some personal experience and viewpoints to bear on this, MissHoneyMoon. As you point out, a lot of these debates either ignore or gag what sex workers have to say.

I understand from friends who have worked in advocacy / support projects for sex workers (eg ScotPep) that the Scandinavian model of prosecuting pimps and punters is itself troublesome, as something that drives the workers off populated streets and into areas where they are more vulnerable. Do you know more about this? I have heard the discussions but not absorbed all the nuances.

Thank you very much for your lovely welcome. I wanted to add some sense of the mundane and normality to a debate on sex work. Usually, there seems to be two extremes when the media or indeed people debate prostitution. It seems to be either drug addicted street workers and or trafficked victims on one end or preposterous story lines about Belle de Jour wannabes. In reality, there are so many different ladies out there of all ages and shapes, as well as backgrounds.

I think rational and sensible discussion of sex work gets high jacked by latter day moral do-gooders en par with the patronising behaviour for example missionaries or Victorians had who wanted to rescue fallen women. Neither actually gave women many rights of self determination. Hence it is ironic that so many feminists treat us sex workers in the same manner by ignoring what we have to say and trying to gag us lest we contradict their concept and myth that all paid sex is akin to rape and an act of exploitation.

MissHoneyMoon, I didn't suggest you were being exploited, or in need of rescue. I suggested that your free choices have an impact on the lives of other less free women, which is what I find objectionable.

And your arguments against that are that you don't believe the research about exploitation, and that those who disagree with you have a "troubled" relationship with heterosexual sex