How is it possible to be a feminist and support the sex industry?

I'm inclined to keep an open mind on Miss Honey, because I have heard her viewpoint from genuine women genuinely working in the sex industry. For some women, sex work is an ok way to make a living, even fun on occasions and when it's not fun it is not, to those women who have decided that it makes economic and practical sense to them to choose this work, as awful as it is to those who have no choice. Lots of jobs involve things that can make you feel nauseous, that are damaging to your health, that expose you to the risk of verbal abuse, physical violence and/or battles with your conscience. (think 'collections worker for one of those 2000% APR loan providers' for instance).
THe main problem with the most vociferous opponents of The Sex Industry as a whole (ie encopassing everyone from pimps to fetishwear models to women setting up a suggestively-named online shop to sell lube and condoms) is they have some if not most of the same messed up attitudes towards sex as the average loopy rightwing misogynist:

• that sex is an unspeakable, special, sacred activity completely and utterly separate from everything else human beings do or think about
• that it's women's job to service men domestically and emotionally but to ration out their access to sexual pleasure, trading it for 'commitment' (or cash)
• that male sexual appetite is uncontrollable, ugly and disgusting, and that women don't have a sexual appetite at all
• that a woman's 'worth' is dependent on how much sex she refuses

Sex as a commercial enterprise is frequently set up in opposition to sex in 'loving relationships' ie heteromonogamous ones. Yet violence, including sexual assault, explotiation, verbal abuse and psychological abuse occurs with considerable frequency in heteromonogamous couple-relationships (an average of two women a week killed by a partner or former partner, don't forget, has anyone got any statistics on how that compares with the number of face-to-face sex workers killed by buyers of sex in an average week?). THe obsession with sexual ownership of other people in romantic monogamy is very damaging: some non-trafficked non-enslaved sex workers see sex work as a better deal than marriage to a man who sees women as fuckable domestic appliances - with high end sex work you are selling your time by the hour and when the time's up you can walk away from the punter and forget him, which is a bit more difficult if you are living in his house and he has isolated you from your friends and family.

"actually the point isn't whether I'm female"

Actually it is highly relevant whether you are female or not.
And English is your fourth language you say? Really? Really? As someone who speaks five languages myself can I ask you which other languages you speak? Its relevant because you seem to be implying that by being as articulate as you clearly are in your fourth language, we plebs are no intellectual match for you. And your writing tone and style is decidedly masculine.

MissHoneyMoon,
there is no general unease and hatred of women like dittany towards the "whore" because women like dittany do not categorise other women as whores. We see prostitutes as our daughters, our sisters, our selves. They are women as are we. YOu'd have to be a very strange type of woman to think that vulnerable women, poor women and in most cases abused women are whores. I, rightly or wrongly, see them as victims of a society where it makes economic sense for a woman to take up prostitution. I also strongly question the motives of a man who deems it acceptable to buy another human being's body. Oh sorry, their not human beings, are they? THey're just women; no sorry, whores. And yes, some men sell their bodies for sex but not to women because if women have any spare cash they're going to spend it on something else( often on their children).

Ooooh the claws are coming out. I have a feeling that some of the now polemic insults and clichés bundied around might stem from a general unease and hatred towards the ?whore?. How come when you cannot use clear arguments and are incapable of actually substantiating your spurious claims you resort to insults? It isn?t the men who show disrespect to women and their sexual organs but some of you supposed feminist women are truly aggressive and offensive towards sex workers. Is this how your brand of feminism works? If you cannot convince/shout me down you will label me with gratuitous insults? Shame that me aka Fuckhole can actually continue with a reasoned debate without the insults.

I have a property in Notting Hill which actually for a better word is a ?boudoir?. Like many self employed people I like to have a separate work place. I could coyly call it an office but it actually is a boudoir.

Again I speak for me and echo the thoughts of likeminded colleagues who have discussed this thread on an industry forum ? please in turn those do the same ? speak for yourselves and try and stop to speak for and on behalf of sex workers. The problem really a lot of people outside of the industry have is that we reserve the right to actually have a free will and choice. You are clearly demonstrating that you want to deny me that clear choice and free will.

Thousands of women encounter different forms of paid sex works but thousands work in a very similar way to me. Some ladies prefer to work for an agency or parlour. They may pay a fee etc but then they do not have the overheads I have. We all tend to opt for what suits us most. And then some women work at the top of their profession some have poorly paid jobs. Again that is sadly part of an ongoing social injustice that affects women and men across the world.

As for men degrading women ? again that sadly is an aspect of society that does not actually exist because of prostitution or as part of it. By actually not labelling and degrading the sexual needs of my clients you might stop from perpetuating the mutual disrespect. Any of you may encounter sexually aggressive and disrespectful men; I do not as part of my work. I have some clear parameters and dos and don?ts for any appointment and will not offer my services to those that do not respect my working methods.

So if you some of you are trying to make me responsible for the attitude of society then please extend some simple courtesy and respect to all women. Stop the hypocrisy, insults and actually try and offer a real argument instead of polemics and continuing simplistic propaganda. Some sex workers do not do well, some workers in poorly paid stressful jobs falter and suffer from burnout. There can be great harm to health and society in most industries if they have an unfair pay structure and as long there is a massive socially disadvantaged group. The reasons for exploitation, including the sex industry are not as simplistic as many of you try to portray and includes issues of class, education and so on. Sex at street level exists not because of escorts like us on the other end of the spectrum but because there are men with lower incomes. Many students right now use escorting to pay for their degrees. Shame that the current government includes a lot of female politicians who have had the possibility to study for free with a full grant ? yet have contributed to increasing two tier system of those that can afford education and those that cannot.

Again to reiterate unlike a few of you, I speak for myself ? all I ask is for some basic courtesy and too kindly desist from trying to speak for women like me. I am impressed by a number of intelligent and interesting members on this forum but unfortunately there are the judgemental types that try and dress up their ignorance and hatred of prostitutes as actually trying to save them. The hypocrisy of some of the women trying to argue for some form of sanitised sisterhood is rather startling. Every time so far anyone working as a prostitute is trying to enter a debate with those not in the industry ? it seems to sooner or later turn into a slanging match with insults against the whore/fuck hole. Sorry but this does not look like respect or indeed true genuine concern for any of us.

As for using Miss it is close to one of my working names. To be honest the point is not whether I am female, a sex worker or anything else. It actually is about not receiving any real argument about some points you claimed. And I am not English ? it wasn?t even my second or third language. However, I think I am fluent enough to argue my case without cheap primitive insults. Sadly, this does not seem to be the case for a few native speakers. Ironically, quite a few members here happen to post on a whore board as people do not stop being women, parents etc. I think the biggest issue some people including the most vociferous and insulting here have is that far from the little oppressed dumb women you seem to want to save from ourselves and sexual exploitation; you are faced with those who can actually articulate clearly reasoned intelligent points in stark contrast to some of the posts.

Anyway, thanks to those that had some great points. The rest are sadly as I imagined the bigoted Bindel clones to be. She too tries to shout down or insult us if try to speak for ourselves.

Anyway I'm about to retire to my boudoir before another mammoth post arrives extolling the joys of intimate knowledge for a fee.

This would be funny if it weren't for all the real prostitutes getting beaten, drugged and raped as we type. The children, the refugees, the runaways who were trying to escape abuse, the trafficked women and the abductees aren't being pleasured for thousands of pounds right now. And all the women getting beaten and raped by men who normally pay for it but tonight can't be bothered to pay. Goodnight all.

She may be a woman but if she is a woman she sounds very much like a man trying to sound like a woman. Read her posts. There is a distinct 'readers wives' feel to the whole thing. Why did the other one jump in with 'i can assure you she's female'? Do they know each other? If so, why are they here exactly?

Why do you find it so hard to believe that these women really do exist? Why the "Dave" slander every time?

Oh wait hang on. She has chosen a username that starts with the prefix Miss. She must be a lady. Sorry MissHoneyMoon.

It's weird because on this predominately female site almost no-one bothers to put Miss in front of their name. Maybe because we just think of ourselves as people rather than as ladies.

I must change my name to MissBlinder as soon as I can .

MRA?

Sorry, dittany, was away reading elsewhere. However, the "you're a punter/hairy handed trucker called Dave" thing does appear distressingly often in your discussions. Why is this, do you know?

(I won't speculate.)

It just seems rather weak, as an argument, y'know.

I'm intrigued to know what Andrea Dworking has to say on the matter. Enlighten us MHM.

Perhaps MissHoneyMoon's first language (out of the four she claims to speak) is not English, but something a little more florid?

Didn't you already use the "You're a punter" argument, dittany?

I have to say, I have no idea whether you are a 'lady' or a client MHM. But you're quite wrong about us being puritanical automatons. We can even say cunnilingus and (shock) bedroom. Who says 'orally pleasured' and boudoir' nowadays? Mr Heffner? Is it you?

MissHoneymoon if you did a bit more reading and a bit less writing you might understand the argument.

Sorry but especially Dittany sounds like a little Bindel automated drone. You offer no actual valid argument as to where prostitution harms women, i.e. me.

SolidGoldBrass eloquently summed up the process of paying for a service.

For example, looking at any service industry, a manicurist might inhale fumes all day, have a bad back and earn a fairly crap wage. I see many ladies do long shifts ? dealing with pretty impolite customers. Maybe their education, original ethnic background limited their employment opportunities. Some ladies work under much better conditions in a lovely environment with better facilities. The latter group however does not hold any blame nor should it have to feel guilty about its better fortune. It is an issue for society overall to address education and global economic conditions. To me fairer rates for sex across the world are en par with any Fair Trade initiative. We take responsibility for our consumer choices every day; it starts with our tea or coffee. Where do you draw the line?

I also strongly resent the vilification and attack on those who are my clients. The real problem a lot of vociferous anti prostitution campaigners have is a puritanical and rather narrow minded view on sex. The same arguments incidentally have often been applied to pornography in general. I do think that there are social injustices in that industry too. However, the most basic flaw people like Andrea Dworking and others face is the mere fact that a lot of women are as turned on by porn as men. They may not like the same films and fact is there are a lot of female producers and directors who actually cater for a thriving female buyer ship of porn. Women have tried to book me but I am not sexually attracted and thus have my own boundaries. I decline bookings from female customers. I also decline a lot of booking requests by men if I do not like the sound of them or their attitude. Sadly, I could not do the same in other industries in past jobs!

I will try not to use any 'tired phrases'. MissHoneyMoon in marketing and selling yourself as a fuckhole you are contributing to the perception in our society that women are fuckholes hich men can buy or steal. This affects the thousands of other women who do not get to live the idealised dream of prostitution you describe. And it also affects all other women. I've worked with quite a few men who see prostitutes. I hear their violence fantasies, their disgust for the woman and in some cases their deep shame at their actions. Please stop pretending that you speak for the majority of women who sell sex.