Barring certain reproductive bits, men and women are basically the same. Discuss.

I see what you are saying ISNT (and apologies if what I said offended you).

I'm afraid I am too pregnancy befuddled to argue with you eloquently (and I'm not even sure I need to argue with you as I don't disagree with you - I wish my opinions were more formed on this subject I seem to make it up if I go along!). I think I do disagree with the assertion that we are not really all that different. I think we are, in a lot of ways, but it is also useful to see gender on a continuum, just as both sexes have varying levels of the hormone testosterone (predominant in males) and oestrogen (predominant in females) (excuse the complete pop psychology here - I'm a long way from my neuroscience degree so these assertions aren't based on the peer reviewed research we are so fond of on MN! Just on my memory).

If we accept the above to be true, then is it unreasonable to suggest that the traits associated with the 'male' hormone to be more masculine traits, and the female ones to be more feminine? Of course I accept your point that there are varying levels and people shouldn't be pigeon-holed, especially when these traits and their gender assignment are regarded pejoratively.

I'm not sure I have a point here . Just that I do think men and woman are fundamentally different. Doesn't mean they don't share the same traits.

Incidentally DH told me that I think like a man the other day, as I was asking how temporary cats eyes were put on the ground, I assumed it was mechanically as they were so uniform. I was quite offended and told him exactly why!

Incidentally (again!) I do have a DH who has a wide range of both 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits. Case in point: when I was on early maternity leave I got very into Newlyweds: Nick and Jessica. DH would sneer at me and pretend not to watch. His cover was blown when one day, apropos of nothing, he said to me 'So, did Jessica like the wardrobe Nick made her'. Anyway, we both share care of DD, in fact he is home with her more than I am, and I am the main breadwinner. I just give you this aside to let you know that we don't follow 'traditional' gender roles in this house.

bumperlicious your view also seems to tie in with what I said earlier (sorry to quote myself but anyway)

"I also suspect that how a person is themselves affects their viewpoint on this? I have a very "male" brain apparently, which is maybe why I feel so strongly that we are not that different and that stereotypes are ludicrous. If I was more "female" brained would I be more inclined to take the view that there are fundamental differences? "

So with the crying thing, when people say that women are more likely to cry in public than men, that resonates for you. As it's something you do, it is obvious to you that it's true. And then when people say that it's socialisation or that many women don't do it, maybe you feel that people are trying to deny women their true nature, which is wrong, and that there is maybe a sense that it is somehow an undesirable thing to do.

While as someone who doesn't cry in public, and is female, I see the assertion that it is a biological/hormonal norm as an affront to me as a (fairly) normal woman.

We are both offended and thus put in opposition, because we both want the way that we are to be validated.

There must be a middle ground where variations in behaviour are accepted without question, and without anyone feeling that their personality is under attack IYSWIM.

bumperlicious I see what you are saying

the problem I have though is that if certain behaviours, stereotypical behaviours are the way it is for that sex, then people who behave in another way are... what?

You say an exception. Other people might say unfeminine, or odd. If there is a perception that "normal women do this" then by definition any woman who does not do it is not a proper woman.

I see on these threads a lot about how behaviours are often based on impressing a female or keeping a male. Where does that leave gay people? Or people who are asexual? or indeed those who like to do it with plasticene or paperclips?

If we take a behaviour, even if it is one that one of the sexes does display more on average, and say "this is what men/women do, and if you don't do it that is out of the ordinary" then where does that leave us in terms of understanding, tolerance and progress?

In years gone by all sorts of things have been accepted - that women's brains are incapable of understanding mathematical or scientific concepts for example. The people then thought that was a genuine difference between the sexes - that women were unsuited to rigorous study and logic, that their brains were not constructed to deal with it.

We now know that that is not true (or do we? many people would still argue that I think) and women have the opportunity to study sciences etc if they want.

My problem is that the characterisation of "women are like this and men are like that" seems inevitably to lead to pigeonholing, intolerance and loss of opportunity.

Far better to treat people as individuals - maybe bumperlicious bursts into tears at watership down but is a dab hand with a soldering iron, imsonottelling doesn't cry in public but is shit at parallel parking. Meanwhile imsonottelling's DH is an ex rugby player who does a very "male" outdoorsy job but is also a patient kind and loving father who would far rather be at home painting with the kids than out in his van.

Do you see what I mean?

I take an interest in the studies into the differences, brain chemistry and hormones and so on. it is fascinating. But i don't think those things should then be used to define individuals.

I think there are some men who like to spend time in sheds and some women like to carry small dogs around in handbags.

Both these behaviours baffle me.

I am considered to be tactless and "like a man" at work (colleague feedback).
Someone even said, that, had I been born in the middle ages I'd have been burned as a witch. I pointed out that if HE had been born in the middle ages he would have gone on crusades and hacked people to death utterly convinced he was right.

A lot of it is pure socialisation. Some emotions and skills and jobs are allocated to a specific gender, but it is clear that most of these things are common across both sexes.

Yes, an aggressive man is just described as, well, an aggressive man!

By the way, has anyone ever noticed that hormones are often referred to as if they were a purely female possession? You don't hear an aggressive man referred to as hormonal.

Oh I have to do this now!

lol at marital arts!

That's a good Malapropism!

the crying thing is something that a lot of us females who are at very senior levels in my martial art talk about.

we have all at some point found ourselves crying.. not breaking down in an 'i can't do it' way but actually continuing to fight in a high intensity fight but have tears in our eyes. or have tears come when we get hit particualrly hard even though we carry on fighting or have tears in the shower after a really high intensity grading.

the men we train with don't have this.

our general findings through anecdote is that women release tension through tears whereas the men don't.

men who do martial arts generally all have tales of losing control or losing their temper. this is as common for them as tales of tears are for the women... it seems that our bodies release the stress in tears and their don't so they do eventually blow their top.

not scientific.. but the result of a lot of anecdote from a lot of very senior martial artists of both genders.

i've deliberately not read the thread yet but wanted to give my current opinion first. i will then read what others have said and see if i change my mind.

basically i think there's a continuum in some things and i think that more men are on one end and more women on the other but most are all mixed up in the middle.

personally i excelled at physics and maths, read maps for fun (orienteering), did marital arts and love running and mountain biking in the mud

the main difference between ME and most men is that at some point (hopefully soon) i'll have some very difficult decisions to make about my career and nurturing my children. the reason I have to make the decisions and not DH is that I have to give birth and i want to breastfeed. if i could get DH to do both of those roles i would in a second.

i have yet to conceive and may change my mind but right now i'd prefer to be a dad than a mum if that were possible.

I like this thread. I think there are some behavioural differences that are biologically related, but these are often socially reinforced and new ones added. E.g. maybe women are evolutionarily less likely to want casual sex because of the risk of pregnancy, but then there's also the social norm that often condemns women for having lots of sexual partners. And there's definitely no gene on the X chromosome for liking pink when aged 5.

Re crying I think that might be similar, i.e. men more likely to release frustration by shouting, women by crying because of hormonal differences, but also what is socially acceptable.

But obviously as others have pointed out all these differences are on a continuum, with lots of overlap between the sexes.

There was an article in the Guardian a while back, debunking the idea that women talk more than men. It pointed out that people want to believe in differences between the sexes and are interested in them, so every bit of crap science gets reported as if it were gospel.

By the way, has anyone ever noticed that hormones are often referred to as if they were a purely female possession? You don't hear an aggressive man referred to as hormonal.

'"woman are more likely to cry publicly than men"

Well I'm not. I've never burst into tears in public in my life. Why would I? I don't go around bursting into tears at home either.

My family don't think much of people who sob in public either.

Plus I see men shedding tears in buckets when it is socially acceptable to do so eg their underdog football team wins some big prize.

it;s socialisation.

'

You're not really smashing a stereotype though. Of course there are exceptions to everything, but I don't think it is an unrealistic stereotype. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen a man cry in public (aside from on TV), but wouldn't even try and count the number of women I've seen cry.

I don't know if it is as simple as socialisation. I seem to cry as a vicereal reaction to certain situations, I certainly don't do it to get my own way, and often it is very embarrassing (e.g. at work). I don't think it is as simple as saying it is socialisation. I would say hormones must have a big part in it.

I think every time we say we can do things that men cant like find things in cupboards, we're encouraging them to beleive they can do things that we cant.

I.e. The Mrs (vomits in own mouth at even having writen that phrase) can dig the brown sauce out of the back of the cupboard, she's good at that. And i'm not bothered about saying I cant do it because she's crap at loads of other stuff thats why I earn all the money, fix the car, mow the lawn etc etc

Also a lot of men will happily say they cant do things like find food in cupboards or iron a shirt like a women can. They praise us like we are little children so that we feel all proud and useful. I doubt many men have ever turned to their wife and said "could you help me work out where the oilstick is, you're much better with cars than I am"

• Shouldnt generalise like that about men, my OH would feel peeved. He shares my views.

Obviously we are thinking on the same lines here,ISNT - so far I've agreed with all your posts. Maybe I'll save time by just posting "what ISNT said" in future!

Sorry kind of repeating you repeating me there pogleswood I was trying to do "show me show me your groovy moves" while reading your post and maybe didn';t give it my full attention

Men also know that if they say they can't find something in a cupboard in the home after a perfunctory look, a woman is on hand to do it for him.

I wonder if men who live alone have this cupboard problem.

They also seem to have no problem locating tools in their garage cupboards etc. In fact many men I know have immaculately ordered sheds and garages and can produce, say, a small chisel from a box at the back of a shelf behind some oil cans without even breaking a sweat.

For each of these things it is worth thinking whether there is an equivalent in a "man's space" and whether they are suddenly and miraculously able to perform there.

If you say that there are innate differences between men and women due to reproduction,I wouldn't argue,but reproducing does only take up a small part of an average woman's life in the developed world.So how much does it affect your life pre and post reproducing,or for those who are childless for whatever reason?
It is difficult for me to extrapolate from how I feel as a women about having and bringing up children,to exactly how this knocks on into other aspects of life,and the effects I can think of I would put down to socialisation rather than biology.

I do think the "back of cupboards test" is down to upbringing - to sort-of-quote ISNT:

"Men are also taught from a young age that if they rummage for a bit in a cupboard and then say "I can't find it" they can get people to find stuff for them, apparently"

I agree with ISNT the crying thing is pure socialisation.

No one cries in my family because we have been trained out of it.

"Big boys don't cry" - Sounds like social conditioning to me!

"woman are more likely to cry publicly than men"

Well I'm not. I've never burst into tears in public in my life. Why would I? I don't go around bursting into tears at home either.

My family don't think much of people who sob in public either.

Plus I see men shedding tears in buckets when it is socially acceptable to do so eg their underdog football team wins some big prize.

it;s socialisation.

Women are also taught from a young age that if they cry they can get people to do stuff for them, apparently

Men aren't taught that they are told to stop it.

Socialisation.

If you look at our closest relatives in the animal world (probably binobo chimps) you can see that gender plays a huge role in their society. Both sexes still hunt, eat and rear their young though.

I don't know how far evolution has taken us from our beginnings but I suspect that the hormones that drive us make quite a big difference to our personalities in terms of aggression and sex drive etc.

I will argue that men are more aggressive in general than women.

Yeah, the handy/unfortunate thing about evolutionary theory is that it is just a theory which can never be proved or falsified. In that sense, it's useless. It's just an idea that you can't categorically say is right or wrong.